Resolved: Move LGTF Minimum Level Requirement Back Up to 45+

[Apparition]

One of the biggest legitimate complaints about the various changes made to the game since the Issue 24 beta is the lowering of the level requirement for the Lady Grey Task Force.  Prior to sunset, it was level 45+.  Now for some unfathomable reason, it's level 35+.  Over the past two years, numerous teams lead by someone lower than level 45 (including friends of mine), have attempted the Lady Grey Task Force, only to run into a full stop once they encountered the level 50 Weakened Hamidon.

 

To put simply, the Lady Grey TF really, really should have its minimum level requirement set back to level 45+.  This would prevent a lot of people who don't know that the Weakened Hamidon is set at level 50 from wasting their time attempting the TF.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Apparition

[TemporalVileTerror]

Alternatively, reduce the minimum spawn level for Weakened Hamidon down to 35 as well.

[Ruin Mage]

Nah.

[Zeraphia]

If it could be made so that no one lower than 45+ can START the task force, but anyone 35+ could JOIN the Task Force, that would be the most optimal solution. However, as far as I'm aware, nothing in the game works like that therefore I must ultimately agree with you that it should be placed to 45+. 

[Razor Cure]

5 hours ago, Apparition said:

Prior to sunset, it was level 45+.  Now for some unfathomable reason, it's level 35+. 

I think it was a silly idea to drop the reqs down to 35. It is MEANT to be end game content, clearly. 99% of people running it if they are lower than 40 are just trying to coast along for some XP, especially since the rewards at 50 are much better, being incarnate stuff. I didn't actually realise it was 35+, until someone on Help awhile back was saying the Mitos were unkillable, since they started the tf with a level 39 leader. In this case, the person WAS actually a newish player and had no idea what the tf contained (which begs the question, why would you do an unknown TF at such a low level, with no research).

A warning or something should appear when starting, at the very least.

 

5 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Alternatively, reduce the minimum spawn level for Weakened Hamidon down to 35 as well.

And make what is already a trivial encounter even less epic? Lets not. It IS Hami. Weak Hami, but still hami. He should not be below 50.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

 In this case, the person WAS actually a newish player and had no idea what the tf contained (which begs the question, why would you do an unknown TF at such a low level, with no research).

 

 

... because it's a game that's saying "hey, you can run this content you haven't done?"

[Razor Cure]

7 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... because it's a game that's saying "hey, you can run this content you haven't done?"

It is also saying the TF is Level 35 - 50.

Considering 50 is the max, pretty reasonable to assume it contains stuff challenging to 50s. And therefore at least difficult for non 50s. The guy coulda just taken 5 seconds to ask about the TF in help chat, before starting. And..the chances that the other 7 players were all sub 50 and had never done it? Pretty low. Not that it fully excuses the TF 'letting' you start it sub 50, but starting something you have never done, knowing its gonna be a challenge, then being upset when it turns out to be just that (well impossible in fact. lol)..not much sympathy here.

[summers]

2 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

It is also saying the TF is Level 35 - 50.

Considering 50 is the max, pretty reasonable to assume it contains stuff challenging to 50s. And therefore at least difficult for non 50s. The guy coulda just taken 5 seconds to ask about the TF in help chat, before starting. And..the chances that the other 7 players were all sub 50 and had never done it? Pretty low. Not that it fully excuses the TF 'letting' you start it sub 50, but starting something you have never done, knowing its gonna be a challenge, then being upset when it turns out to be just that (well impossible in fact. lol)..not much sympathy here.

 

It's a game that people play for fun, there are new players, and 35-50 suggests you can complete it at 35. Why should people require all of this additional information/expertise to work out that the information given to them isn't even true.

 

The goal should be to make the game as approachable and friendly as possible and this is simply a trap.

[Razor Cure]

2 minutes ago, summers said:

Why should people require all of this additional information/expertise to work out that the information given to them isn't even true.

 

The goal should be to make the game as approachable and friendly as possible and this is simply a trap.

 

A trap implies it is somehow malicious on the part of the Devs. That they cackle and laugh when people cant kill lvl 50 Mitos.

Is it annoying? Sure.

Is it a TRAP? Not in the least.

And 'all this additional information..'? Where 'all' is simply going into Help chat and saying 'Hey people, how Hard is Lady Grey TF? Can it be done at sub 40?'

Really, how hard is that too do?

 

[Greycat]

5 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

It is also saying the TF is Level 35 - 50.

Considering 50 is the max, pretty reasonable to assume it contains stuff challenging to 50s. And therefore at least difficult for non 50s. The guy coulda just taken 5 seconds to ask about the TF in help chat, before starting. And..the chances that the other 7 players were all sub 50 and had never done it? Pretty low. Not that it fully excuses the TF 'letting' you start it sub 50, but starting something you have never done, knowing its gonna be a challenge, then being upset when it turns out to be just that (well impossible in fact. lol)..not much sympathy here.

 

It's also pretty reasonable, given that *exact same information* that you can do it at 35. Similar to the ITF, which has the same range. Will it be harder? Sure. Should it be completeable at 35 if it says it starts at 35? Yes.

 

You shouldn't "need" someone at the top level when the game says "you have X level range which can run this." And no, you shouldn't need to "ask in help" or "do research." Also...

 

Quote

Considering 50 is the max, pretty reasonable to assume it contains stuff challenging to 50s

 

lol, right. Because the ITF (in the same level range) is "challenging to 50s." No. It should have content appropriate and able to be completed by the whole level range, because that is the level range you run into it in. Or, it should be re-raised up to 45 if it's *not* appropriate for lower levels.

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

 

A trap implies it is somehow malicious on the part of the Devs. That they cackle and laugh when people cant kill lvl 50 Mitos.

Is it annoying? Sure.

Is it a TRAP? Not in the least.

And 'all this additional information..'? Where 'all' is simply going into Help chat and saying 'Hey people, how Hard is Lady Grey TF? Can it be done at sub 40?'

Really, how hard is that too do?

 

 

Do you do that for all your content? Asking if Frostfire can be run at level 8? If Posi 1 can be done at level 8? If Manti can be run at 30? No. Nobody does that. They all show up at their minimum level and can be run at the minimum shown. Given *that* history for pretty much all other content in the game, why should *anyone* expect the LGTF to be any different when they see it at 35?

[summers]

3 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Where 'all' is simply going into Help chat and saying 'Hey people, how Hard is Lady Grey TF? Can it be done at sub 40?'

Really, how hard is that too do?

 

 

The game says you can do it at 35, so you should be able to do so. You won't when you meet a level 50 Elite Boss.

 

The suggestion you have made is hard to imagine since what would the game look like if every bit of level advice it provides required you to go to help chat and ask if any particular story arc or mission is doable at the level it says it can be done. Why not just provide the real answer up front?

 

I'm midway through my post and @Greycat is already beating me to it, so I'll leave it there.

[Razor Cure]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

You shouldn't "need" someone at the top level when the game says "you have X level range which can run this." And no, you shouldn't need to "ask in help" or "do research." Also...

 

Try a MsLib With everyone at 45 with no IOs. See how that goes.

 

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

lol, right. Because the ITF (in the same level range) is "challenging to 50s." No.

You better change that. Challenging to 50s. As in 50. Nothing else. No incarnates. You know..like when the TF first came out? Cause I sure do recall quite a few level 50 teams failing ITF. Not too mention STF. Are those challenging to a GOOD team of 50+s incarnates? They still can be as well. Case in point..STF the other week, and it was basically an extremely sub optimal mix of ATs and skill levels. Finally won, but was in an incarnate rolfstomp? Not at all.

So yeah, content that goes to 50 can STILL be a challenge for 50s.

 

4 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Do you do that for all your content?

Now? No, because I KNOW all the content. Way back when I was starting out? I sure did. If I was forming a TF, id look at the wiki about it. So your statement that nobody does that is 100% BS. Especially since I often see people in Help chat asking just those questions you are posing.

 

4 minutes ago, summers said:

Why not just provide the real answer up front?

Because the Devs are human and make mistakes? And can not fix everything right NOW. In the absence of magic insta fixes (hey, great idea, make the entire game like Wikipedia, so we can all edit it. That can't go wrong, right?) asking questions is a pretty easy stop gap.

[Sovera]

Someone in this thread is confusing roleplay with gameplay, and making some really weird arguments that make me happy they are not a dev.

 

If a TF is tagged as level 35 then it MUST be doable at 35. Hami spawning at 50 stops this. The bug where Doc Buzzsaw spawned as a +7 EB because it spawned at its max level and the TF could be started at level 8 broke many Positron part one TFs and it was a bug that (eventually) got fixed.

 

Whether the fix to LGTF is for Hami to have the same dynamic level scaling as the other mobs OR for the TF's level to be 45 it does not matter. What matters is that the TF must be doable.

[AerialAssault]

Honestly, i've never done LGTF at anything other than level 50, so it didn't occur to me that Hamidon was hard-locked at 50. I can see how that would be an immediate run ender for a group at level 35.

 

Personally, I would rather Hamidon spawn at the level of the group, rather than put the minimum level up to 45, since most of the TF is fighting Rikti, which should be doable by a team at level 35. However, if it is the case that Hamidon is unable to be levelled down, then yeah I think the minimum should be 45. At level 45, Hamidon is going to be one seriously tough nut to crack, but still in the realm of possibility. At level 35? No chance.

[Mr. Vee]

Funny that HC's been running for 2+ years yet this is just a problem now? If it's easy to change it and have Hami scale, fine. Otherwise, maybe a pop-up warning if a non-50 has the star. Or if neither, that's fine too. Taking a perfectly good tf out of the longest level slog in the game just because we're afraid a team will fail it is ridiculous. And frankly the hami fight being theoretically doable for a team of neophytes at 45 isn't really going to change their practical ability to finish it, especially since it's dependent on them having known before starting to bring enough mez to the fight.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Mr. Vee
added last bit

[TheZag]

I took a few swings at the weakened hamidon as a level 30 after eating 4 large accuracy enhancements and was doing between .02 and .07 damage.  But that was just for the lolz of hitting a +20 hami.

 

Any of the 3 suggestions ive seen so far should be fine to me.  Either have hami scale down to 35 or have the TF be 45+ or have a warning that there is a lvl 50 baddie waiting for you and lvl 35 can come but 50 should lead.

 

Im partial to having the weakened hamidon scale down to 35.  Sure hes an endgame monster but this one specifically has weakened in the name.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, AerialAssault said:

Honestly, i've never done LGTF at anything other than level 50, so it didn't occur to me that Hamidon was hard-locked at 50. I can see how that would be an immediate run ender for a group at level 35.

Was it like that on Live?  I can't recall.  There's no mention of it on CoH wiki or Paragon Wiki archive.  Unofficial Homecoming Wiki mentions the level now goes down to 35 for players joining but says Hamidon is "still" 50 which implies it was this way all along.

 

In any case, I've only been back a few months and the only LGTF I've completed, the team didn't know about Hamidon being 50 either.   The leader was 40 and so we ran into a brick wall on that mission.  We assumed it was a bug, called a GM, who also didn't seem to know it was supposed to be 50, and cleared the mission for us.

 

Then again, it's always been a poorly designed TF because of that encounter since it requires you to know ahead of time what to bring with you on the team, which also goes against most of the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.

[Hedgefund]

3 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Was it like that on Live?  I can't recall.  There's no mention of it on CoH wiki or Paragon Wiki archive.  Unofficial Homecoming Wiki mentions the level now goes down to 35 for players joining but says Hamidon is "still" 50 which implies it was this way all along.

My recollection, and I'm not going to put in the work to verify via old patch notes, is that it was released as 35+ erroneously and was changed to be 45+.  SCORE changed it back to 35.

[ZemX]

14 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

My recollection, and I'm not going to put in the work to verify via old patch notes, is that it was released as 35+ erroneously and was changed to be 45+.  SCORE changed it back to 35.

Sorry.  I meant the part about Hamidon always spawning at a minimum of 50 regardless of the level of the team.  It does sound like this was always the case and I have some vague recollections along those lines too.  Just not sure of it.

[Mr. Vee]

I've decided a 35 team would be better off than a 45. You're 35, you go in, team wipe, 'woh what happened?', 'oh wow, it's 50, guess we can't finish this, sorry'. You're 45 and you probably have several team wipes and your HPT debt badges before everyone gives up.

[AboveTheChemist]

57 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

My recollection, and I'm not going to put in the work to verify via old patch notes, is that it was released as 35+ erroneously and was changed to be 45+.  SCORE changed it back to 35.

I did a little digging and your recollection checks out. Here are the particulars:

 

Spoiler

• LGTF was introduced in Issue 10 (24-July-2007), with the patch notes stating "Lady Grey, leader of Vanguard, has a series of missions for a proven team of superpowered individuals, security clearance 45 to 50, designed to take the fight to heart of the Rikti Invasion!"
• On 13-Aug-2007, a bug note was added to the LGTF wiki page stating "Any character over level 35 can join the TF as long as they are sidekicked to an effective combat level of 45 or greater."
• On 09-Dec-2008, the bug note was removed from the LGTF wiki page, with the edit notes implying that the bug was fixed with Issue 13 (released 02-Dec-2008). I could not find any mention of this fix in the available patch notes for Issue 13, or in any of the patch notes from the general time frame before/after Issue 13.
• The consolidated Issue 25 patch notes state "The Lady Grey Task Force minimum level has been set back to 35."

 

[golstat2003]

So in conclusion make it required to be 45+ /thread.

[Burk]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

Do you do that for all your content? Asking if Frostfire can be run at level 8? If Posi 1 can be done at level 8? If Manti can be run at 30? No. Nobody does that. They all show up at their minimum level and can be run at the minimum shown. Given *that* history for pretty much all other content in the game, why should *anyone* expect the LGTF to be any different when they see it at 35?

 

If we're talking about a newish player who has been doing a few task forces as they level, they should actually expect that they shouldn't run a task force at the minimum level. Try running Synapse with only level 15s, just to find that enemies still spawn at the maximum of level 20, or running Manticore at level 30 and fighting level 35s. Of course Frostfire doesn't do that as a regular story arc and Positron for whatever reason isn't considered "signature", but the point here is that the pattern should be to expect to fight enemies at the top end of the level range. Honestly the weirder part is that only Hamidon is level 50 and not the whole task force.

 

I would suggest adding a warning to the start dialog, but I don't see any reason to change the task force itself.

[ZorkNemesis]

2 hours ago, ZemX said:

Was it like that on Live?  I can't recall.  There's no mention of it on CoH wiki or Paragon Wiki archive.  Unofficial Homecoming Wiki mentions the level now goes down to 35 for players joining but says Hamidon is "still" 50 which implies it was this way all along.

 

The TF was 45+ on live and also required completing all of the RWZ story arcs (or at least Dark Watcher?) to be able to start the TF (much like clearing Hollows or Croatoa to start those TFs). It was advertised as extremely difficult early on, comparable to the Statesman and Recluse TFs at the time.  It was also probably made a smidge harder as it was the first major TF introduced after Inventions as well as the first Co-op TF before ATs were allowed to be any alignment.