A tank just isn't a tank in this game

[Diantane]

I've played a tank in many mmorpg's. Their jobs was to run/jump into a group of baddies and take the aggression away from the rest of the team. That works in the first part of the game before the others get much in the way of a defense, but later on that all changes.

 

I pick out a large mob, jump into the middle of them and taunt them to me. As I'm tanking them, I look around and the rest of the team went to a different mob. I explain to them what I am doing for them, but no one replies. They're just a bunch of mindless players. I've heard that players have a program that turns their character into a robot and it fights while they eat, sleep, work or watch TV. Now it's either this or they just don't care.

 

Now most tankers don't do what I do. They just fight like a scrapper (don't realize what they have).

 

Any other tankers have this problem or even care?

[arcane]

Diantane, comrade, are we doing more of this “stating dogmatically what the whole game is like before experiencing much of it” thing that has been a bit of an issue in your other threads? 
 

What exactly is the problem? If players aren’t faceplanting, is there really a problem at all? Can you say more about what the circumstances were here? Team size/level, what content, what difficulty, etc? Genuinely trying to help.

 

[Erratic1]

I will admit that while doing a Posi 1 on my level 50 tank who absolutely did not need the TF but whom I ran to help out a group looking for members I was a bit frustrated when after two pulls of me jumping in first and not a single thing coming off my tanker (who because of TF level only had one of his two damage auras) I was a little miffed to twice look up and find myself alone with the group having run off after the veteran blaster who was faux-tanking. I say faux-tanking because while the blaster was fine I noticed repeated precarious drops in various other character's health which  did not happen when I actually waded in first. Then, with a goodly chunk of my powers missing came the pull where my guy went down and sure enough, nobody was behind me.

 

"A level 50 Tanker went down?" I can sense you asking. He's level 50 but I have not yet respec'd and IO'd him into his post-50 build. So the loss of powers due to the level we operated at was significant. I've taken the finished build cruising on the Test Server and it handles +4x8 like you would expect--without a problem.

 

In any event, at that point I am really miffed. So I decide from that point on (Oranbega) to not be the first in on any subsequent pulls.

 

Sure, when we got to our dark doppelgangers that proved to be a bit of an issue (for them...I lived) but they never seemed to take notice.

 

So in a way, you're right--tankers aren't really needed.

.

.

.

But then, neither is any other AT.

 

No party is going to wipe because it does not have a single Blaster, or Controller, or Defender, or any other AT you can name. 

 

Having a particular AT around may change the variety of tactics available to a party to be successful against its foes, but that's about it. And I have certainly had tons of fun figuring out how to make it through DFB in a group of three before (though the minimal number I have badged with is four).

 

So as arcane suggests, if nobody is face-planting, there isn't really a problem here.

[Sovera]

Dian, buddy, you're once again trying to make things fit your decision on how things work. If you were to play something like GW2 back in the heyday there were 5 DPS in a group. Someone might take it up themselves to take all defensive stats and try to 'tank', but it would be sighed at once noticed because the game did not require it.

 

You're trying to insert WoW gameplay in CoH. Next thing you'll be asking for a healer or only want to play when specifically a healer is in the team.

 

Understand we say this not to demean you or put you down. We are trying to explain the game is a lot easier nowadays, a lot faster. And being easy and fast there is little room to go in with sword and board and using 'taunt' (ew) to be all classical tank.

 

Just by existing a Tanker generates threat. All power sets have a taunt aura so just by brushing a mob they will hate you. So you can tank, you can jump in first, you can take the brunt of the damage and it -will- make the game easier for your squishy team mates.

 

But you don't need to make it perfect because they are not fragile porcelain critters who will shatter at a mob's touch.

 

This is further pushed by the fact enemies are invariably squishy too. We don't play a WoW where all instance mobs are tough elites with a ton of HP and who hit like trucks. Enemies are weak, have weak HP, and this too directs how the game is played. When one or two team mates can wipe a full spawn while you're valiantly trying to capture all the agro does this tell you that they are playing wrong, or that your views are outdated?

 

Like many things in this game we need to see what is -really- happening around us and decide how we want to play it. Back in live I briefly played a Radiation defender and I would diligently drop my debuff toggles on enemies and have a macro saying not kill my toggle or at least kill it last. People did not pay attention. I would get upset.

 

Then I realized there was no difference whether I did it or not. Even back then the game was too easy to try doing this perfect Cataclysm era dungeons CCing mobs and etc because whether I did it or not the enemies would melt and the group would be rushing to the next.

 

This is what you should be looking at. This is why Tankers were an AT so little played except by hardcore tanking fanatics. The game does not ask for an impervious wall. it asks for a 'tough enough to survive' and to no one's surprise between buffs and debuffs even a Scrapper can do the tanking.

 

 

Dude, again, it's not an attempt to be mean to you. This is text so I am insisting to be clear.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Sovera

[BZRKR]

Welcome to City of Villains and Heroes!

Have a look at the following thread that seems relevant to this post:

 

Being a Tanker in this, The One True Game™, is a whole kaleidoscope of different and nuanced actions and reactions.

There is no one-size-fits-all way to Tank.

Revel in that! Make a Tanker that can smash a group by itself! Take advantage of your unkillability to "Jersey Stealth" your way to a mission glowie or the final boss room. Especially if your primary is a high Defense set, you may well be able to drag an aggro cap onto that one last computer, and then click it while dodging a whole room of enemies. Glorious! What's even better is if you are hard charging through the map, be sure to announce that you are "Stealthing!" to the end so that everyone knows what's going on. It's a Hoot!

 

Also the Devs have revealed Here that more challenging content that may very well change how Tanker need to operate. Exciting times!

[Without_Pause]

Just waiting for this person to hit every forum saying why that AT sucks.

[Wavicle]

This game is a little different from other MMOs in that the Tank isn't singled out as the most important person on the team who gets to dictate the flow of gameplay for everyone else, that's true.

A tank in this game is however still a toughy who jumps in first, pulls groups together, and makes everyone else's job way easier. Even at the high levels.

[ZemX]

3 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Just waiting for this person to hit every forum saying why that AT sucks.

 

I'm not convinced this thread isn't a troll job.  Robot players?  This can't be serious.

[krj12]

And this is why I like the game,  no one particular AT is NEEDED.  

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

Waits for blame to be laid on the way other players use the market in game... TLDR: Gone to the Americans! 🤣

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

I'm not convinced this thread isn't a troll job.  Robot players?  This can't be serious.

I've teamed with them. If they are a troll, they are going all-in.

[Diantane]

Okay, I've played a tank in wow, lotro and asheron's call. I've made many different kinds of tanks here. On CoH I try to maintain a team of 8 players. Sometimes we have a healer, other times we do not. I don't always play a tank (about a third of the time).

 

When the team just stands there waiting for someone to make the first move against a mob, I know it's time to play a tank, but I've played tank on other classes (mm, sentinel, scrapper controller) just because I know how to play a tank so well.

 

Difficulty:

1-15= +0 (always x8)

up to 22 = +1

up to 32=  +2-3 depending on the group

up to 42=  +2-4 depending on the group

[Werner]

I almost exclusively solo or team with friends. When teaming with friends (usually 1-3 other friends), the default is to follow the Tanker. We have other defaults, like going left when there's an option, so we often know exactly where the Tanker is headed before they even head there. We generally set the difficulty as high as we think we can handle with only a few deaths if everyone stays together. But it is also expected that people are going to peel off, intentionally or sometimes not, and end up soloing groups on their own, quite possibly faceplanting. We don't see this as a problem. It's just adding some spice, or testing to failure, with the safety net of the group to get you back on your feet quicker than you could get back from the hospital. For us at least, none of this is a problem, it's a feature, and nobody cares. If I'm tanking for my friends, I'll try to hold aggro, but I mostly do that by pounding enemies like everyone else, with things only getting complicated when enemies either don't come to or peel off of me, because we're not going to slow down just so that I can have a nice tight group that's 100% focused on me. No corner pulls. No waiting. I'm in, and then everyone else is in a moment later. So I look a lot like a Scrapper. And of course if I'm soloing a Tanker, then I'll be fighting exactly like a Scrapper. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Werner

[ninja surprise]

 

3 hours ago, Diantane said:

They're just a bunch of mindless players.

 

 

The phrase you'd use here is "the players have a mind of their own and play how they want to play. They might not follow the tanker blindly if they can handle aggro on their own or if the tank ran off on his own without paying any attention to where the team was going."

 

3 hours ago, Diantane said:

Any other tankers have this problem or even care?

 

Nope. Someone wants to go blast or punch a critter on their own, more power to them.

 

1 hour ago, Diantane said:

Okay, I've played a tank in wow, lotro and asheron's call. I've made many different kinds of tanks here. On CoH I try to maintain a team of 8 players. Sometimes we have a healer, other times we do not. I don't always play a tank (about a third of the time).

 

There aren't "healers" in CoH. 

 

1 hour ago, Diantane said:

When the team just stands there waiting for someone to make the first move against a mob, I know it's time to play a tank, but I've played tank on other classes (mm, sentinel, scrapper controller) just because I know how to play a tank so well.

 

Woah woah woah, you say you fake-tanked with *non-tank* classes? You're just as bad as those mind-of-their-own players!!!

 

If you are the team lead you can state your rules of "everyone follow me, nobody solo" and kick anyone who fails to comply. Good luck with that though, I think you'll wind up on a lot of ignore lists.

Everyone's a hero, most builds can solo x8 spawns. Pay attention to where your team goes and play along. This is the way.

 

[Haijinx]

Tanker Troll is a Troll

 

[Marshal_General]

You can't call them mindless players in this day and age.

The politically correct term is

 

scrappers.

[WanderingAries]

How has @Bill Z Bubba not commented on this yet?

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, WanderingAries said:

How has @Bill Z Bubba not commented on this yet?

 

Cuz I'm a scrapper.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Course, when I *am* on a tank, I taunt more. However, my secondary is still damage and I use it cuz I'm not a moron.

[UltraAlt]

9 hours ago, Diantane said:

I pick out a large mob, jump into the middle of them and taunt them to me. As I'm tanking them, I look around and the rest of the team went to a different mob. I explain to them what I am doing for them, but no one replies. They're just a bunch of mindless players. I've heard that players have a program that turns their character into a robot and it fights while they eat, sleep, work or watch TV. Now it's either this or they just don't care.

 

Maybe you aren't the team lead?

Maybe they don't want to chase the tank?

 

The good thing about City of Heroes is that they don't have to chase the tank.

Teams can survive without a tank. Teams can survive without any melee.

 

Maybe when you see the rest of the team doing something else you should join them instead of thinking that they don't know what they are doing if they aren't chasing you.

 

9 hours ago, Diantane said:

Any other tankers have this problem or even care?

 

When I'm tanking, I try to stay with the team lead and taunt the mobs that they are targeting.

If the team lead tells me to herd, I herd.
I try to work with the team.

 

That is to say, I don't join a team as a tank with the preconceived notion that everyone on the team is supposed to chase me.

 

I don't judge the other players for what they are doing (unless they are mindless running off and doing their own thing instead of sticking with the team).

I see what I can do to help the team win.

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Waits for blame to be laid on the way other players use the market in game... TLDR: Gone to the Americans! 🤣

[Crysis]

On 10/11/2021 at 6:20 PM, Diantane said:

Okay, I've played a tank in wow, lotro and asheron's call. I've made many different kinds of tanks here. On CoH I try to maintain a team of 8 players. Sometimes we have a healer, other times we do not. I don't always play a tank (about a third of the time).

 

When the team just stands there waiting for someone to make the first move against a mob, I know it's time to play a tank, but I've played tank on other classes (mm, sentinel, scrapper controller) just because I know how to play a tank so well.

 

Difficulty:

1-15= +0 (always x8)

up to 22 = +1

up to 32=  +2-3 depending on the group

up to 42=  +2-4 depending on the group

 

The fact that you just added “Healer” into the mix tells me you either aren’t reading replies and/or you are just not going to understand that COH isn’t “like” other MMO’s.

 

I “tank” for teams on my Scrapper if you mean take the lead and jump in first.  Shield Charge + two AoE’s and there’s not much left standing to mop up.

 

I “tank” for teams on my Blaster if you mean jump in first.  BU+Aim+Nuke and not much left standing.

 

I “tank” for teams on my Doms/Controllers/Corruptors/MM’s as well.

 

Tanking takes many forms in this game.  It’s called “pulling aggro.”  Now if you mean to HOLD aggro, I’ll grant you that a Tank/Brute exceeds in that role given their power sets.  But there’s seldom a need to HOLD aggro outside an AV/GM battle when other power sets are so adept at defeating enemies quickly and/or, well, can literally HOLD them motionless.  

 

Tanking isn’t reserved for Tankers.  I think that’s the concept you are struggling with the most in COH.

[ZacKing]

For those who haven't seen it there's some new difficulty settings coming that may help those who want the more traditional trinity play.

 

 

 

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, ZacKing said:

For those who haven't seen it there's some new difficulty settings coming that may help those who want the more traditional trinity play.

 

 

 

It’s not about wanting trinity play, I don’t want trinity play. I just want fights to last longer than 10 seconds and I want powers that don’t do damage to be valuable. I still want the same “everyone’s useful, no one’s required” style of balance that we currently have.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Did the concept of a "Trinity" even exist when CoH was released?

 

Oh yea. Many older MMOs had already enshrined the holy trinity of damage/aggro/heals. It was even true here to a point back in the days of tanks herding entire maps for blasters to wipe out. Thankfully, changes were made to do away with that playstyle and CoH was able to become the "&^!@ the trinity" game that we all love.