The Reward is Playing the Game

[Glacier Peak]

Risk versus reward discussions tend to pop up after a patch goes live and I'd consider that a standard occurrence across all video game genres. My philosophy, which I'll gladly concede is my own opinion and not a fact or rule, is that the journey is the fun part, and the destination or goal is the motivation to continue playing the game. 

 

For the folks who have taken a hiatus and returned or the folks who've finally found this great community once more and heard the trumpets of Atlas Park (or the red and goldside equivalent!) I wager they agree with my philosophy. I've never considered playing this game, or any game for that matter, to be described as work. I get paid money to do work, I receive enjoyment from my hobbies, and I get a nice level of relaxation from playing video games.

 

I ask this forum community, what are your thoughts on the topic? 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[golstat2003]

Pretty much when a game stops being fun I stop playing it. I've been playing this game for over a decade. 🙂 

[Greycat]

I'd say.... part "yes and no," part "that's a little too simplistic."

 

I mean, sure. First coming back, seeing the game, it wouldn't matter if there were no INF dropping, people are going to go "Hey, I didn't know this was back" and that'll sustain them for a while.  And yes, when a game becomes work, I either ignore the reward's existence (example, Daevea armor from early in Aion - grind five characters up to 30, each only gets one piece of the armor set, trade or do whatever so that one character can have the full set - no, I ignored this,) or get out of the game (TOR, Aion - using Aion as an example again, and again early instead of the shoddy front end for a massive cash shop it is now, you had to keep upgrading your wings to be competitive - and i don't just mean in PVP, even though it was a PVP centric game, but to travel in PVE. And it got *expensive,* to where you were basically grinding for cash one way or another to get them. I stopped at that point. The "work" aspect outweighed the fun.)

 

As for the rest? Depends on the activity. Basebuilding (other than those that get paid INF for it, and even then...) and RPing are completely their own reward, a "you get enjoyment from the action itself." RP and character and story creation are where I find most of my fun now. The game never offered or promised that *it* would reward you for it.

 

Stuff the game *does* promise to reward you for or have you work towards... those have to be fair, or even if it's the best story arc or TF ever written - if the rewards aren't worth it, it's not getting run. If - say - every arc in the game were set to reward 1 reward marit, TFs 2, Incarnate trials and Hami 3, it would turn fun into work. To get anywhere, I'd just run Habashy's intro arc through ouro repeatedly - it feels fair now with 3 merits for a quick arc, and wouldn't have lost much, but it would still feel like work.  Similiarly, having everything drop (say) 100 merits on you would pretty quickly gut any feeling of achievement when getting anything.

 

So... there's some balance there, and some context for what's "rewarding" - itself or "material" rewards, and fairness in whether it's just a fun part or work.

 

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

I'd say.... part "yes and no," part "that's a little too simplistic."

 

I mean, sure. First coming back, seeing the game, it wouldn't matter if there were no INF dropping, people are going to go "Hey, I didn't know this was back" and that'll sustain them for a while.  And yes, when a game becomes work, I either ignore the reward's existence (example, Daevea armor from early in Aion - grind five characters up to 30, each only gets one piece of the armor set, trade or do whatever so that one character can have the full set - no, I ignored this,) or get out of the game (TOR, Aion - using Aion as an example again, and again early instead of the shoddy front end for a massive cash shop it is now, you had to keep upgrading your wings to be competitive - and i don't just mean in PVP, even though it was a PVP centric game, but to travel in PVE. And it got *expensive,* to where you were basically grinding for cash one way or another to get them. I stopped at that point. The "work" aspect outweighed the fun.)

 

As for the rest? Depends on the activity. Basebuilding (other than those that get paid INF for it, and even then...) and RPing are completely their own reward, a "you get enjoyment from the action itself." RP and character and story creation are where I find most of my fun now. The game never offered or promised that *it* would reward you for it.

 

Stuff the game *does* promise to reward you for or have you work towards... those have to be fair, or even if it's the best story arc or TF ever written - if the rewards aren't worth it, it's not getting run. If - say - every arc in the game were set to reward 1 reward marit, TFs 2, Incarnate trials and Hami 3, it would turn fun into work. To get anywhere, I'd just run Habashy's intro arc through ouro repeatedly - it feels fair now with 3 merits for a quick arc, and wouldn't have lost much, but it would still feel like work.  Similiarly, having everything drop (say) 100 merits on you would pretty quickly gut any feeling of achievement when getting anything.

 

So... there's some balance there, and some context for what's "rewarding" - itself or "material" rewards, and fairness in whether it's just a fun part or work.

Definitely felt that first part when I hit login for the first time back in 2019. It was like I couldn't believe my eyes that I was seeing Atlas Park and the costume creator, let alone throwing attacks at Hellions and hearing that satisfying level up sound. I'll say after about a year that wow sort of wore off and I started to focus on specific things. Collecting all the badges, doing all the incarnate content, exploring every zone in great detail (to find all the ways out of each zone in particular), Hami and MSR raids, PvPing, completely finishing every story arc in the game blue, red and gold, soloing every GM and AV, really everything I could do on one character. Then I started to enjoy building characters for different purposes. Then I tried my hand at base editing and roleplaying in first person. Lately I've been content with testing things out on the beta. I'll wager I've tried everything a player can do by themselves in this game (and on teams when the occasion presented itself).

 

All that to say I've made things enjoyable for myself and playing the game continues to be rewarding. 

[biostem]

For me it's about time vs reward.  I can accept challenging content, but if loss is caused by "artificial stupidity", which is to say game mechanics that are "cheesy", (auto-hitting enemies, insta-deaths, mez effects that knock everybody out regardless of status protection powers, etc), which end up forcing you to suffer a defeat and incur debt, thereby just drawing out the experience, then it's a pass for me.  I don't want every mission to be a cakewalk, but there needs to be a meaningful sense of progression for the amount of time you put in.  This also goes for content which quickly gets repetitive, (mainly in the vain of same enemy group, same maps over and over again).  The perfect difficulty would be where there is still a margin for error, but it's just small - not teamwipingly bad because a long animation meant you couldn't get get off a heal, thereby causing a cascade of deaths.  No game content should remove agency from a player, either - nothing should ever take control of your character away from you.

Edited August 29, 2022 by biostem

[blue4333]

cult-like mentality lol

 

having access to the game should not be used to dissuade people pushing for changes

[Spaghetti Betty]

"Playing the game is its own reward," sure. Any game you decide to spend your time on should be fun. But with any game (or anything fun for that matter), establishing goals is an important part of gaining a sense of accomplishment when doing something fun. Rewards are an easy way to set goalposts. And there will always be people that argue rewards aren't good enough.  It doesn't help that "reward" is entirely subjective.

 

For me, making 1000 alts with any costume pieces I want without a paywall (or unlock requirements) is pretty good fun and a great reward.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Spaghetti Betty

[Ukase]

My thoughts are a bit jumbled. 

I'd like to think I play this game to relax, but sometimes, doing the more challenging content, it's anything but relaxing. I lean forward in my seat, pay closer attention to where teammates are at, looking for threats...it's interesting. I couldn't possibly call it relaxing in any sense of the word. 

Fun is subjective. Parts of the game are fun. Parts of the game make me wish I'd never discovered it. While the journey is essentially the destination, like water, most of us are inclined to take the path of least resistance. 

Some folks would never imagine running at 0/1. It's too easy, and boring for them. They ramp it up to an appropriate level that challenges them. Sometimes, in lieu of ramping up the difficulty, they handicap their characters. Or both. 

Me, it's all depending on my mood. 

I remember when CoH first shut down. It was bittersweet. I was playing this game way too much. I'd gained a lot of weight, just sitting on my ass, and instead of cooking an actual meal, it was pizza, pop tarts, all manner of foods starting with P. But if I could grab it with one hand and shove it into the gaping maw that was my mouth, that was the preferred food. 
When it shut down, I started moving around, found rowing as an exercise, and turned it into a sport where I'm one of the top 100 rowers in the world in my age group. I used to be in the top 10, but a hernia repair slowed me down a bit. 

So, now, when I play, I don't want to waste time smelling any digital roses, usually. I want to reach my objective for the day, and log off. This game can suck 14 hours a day out of your life if you let it. I cannot really grasp how people can just "do nothing".  I struggle to find the amusement in RP, but hey, whatever's fun/interesting for you, go for it. I certainly like a cool looking costume in the costume creator as much as the next player, but in game, you can't really even see the costumes with the same detail unless you zoom in. And I don't play zoomed in, so costumes are kind of a waste of time for me. I can't see yours, I can't see mine, so what difference does it make for me? Zip! But, some of you can waste/spend/invest HOURS in a costume creation session. Makes me wonder how long some of you take to get dressed in the morning, lol. 

So, yeah, I can see where some folks really enjoy the routine or process of starting at level 1 and playing through. I do that myself, but I don't just mill about and do nothing. I get things done; I accomplish as much as I can in the 60 or 90 minutes I give myself to play. I just don't have the time (and even if I did, I don't want to spend that time!) doing nothing. 
When the game last shut down, I thought about how many hours I'd spent playing...and I had nothing to show for all that time. Some memories? Like that's going to do anything for me. Sure, I have some boxes the game's CDs came in. That does nothing for me. It's not nostalgic like the Amazing Spider Man comics. I place no value on these things, because I can't sell them. This is why I'm always vocal on these board about anything that will cause me to spend more time to reach a goal. If it's a new fun thing, okay, but other than that, why are they trying to waste my time? 


As it stands now, I can only consider one session a week "relaxing", where I lead a few folks into various content at a snail's pace. I'd rather go faster, but there's more than a couple of folks in this group that don't enjoy speeding through and would rather just go from mob to mob. And that's fine. I'm just in it for the bad puns. 

[arcane]

I’m pretty positive the only reward in this game is the joy of converting a shiny empyrean merit into a stack of reward merits and now the whole game is devoid of pleasure for all.

[Neiska]

Meanwhile, that shiny new prismatic salvage is selling on the AH for 22 mil a pop. Considering it takes 10 for one of those special costumes, that's 220 million. I expect the prices to drop as time goes on. But I do think its kind of funny. Or will it only be a matter of time before topics of "nerf prism drops" pop up in the forums?

[Grouchybeast]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

I’m pretty positive the only reward in this game is the joy of converting a shiny empyrean merit into a stack of reward merits and now the whole game is devoid of pleasure for all.

 

Sad to say, I never converted an Emp Merit into a Reward Merit and now I never will.  I have nothing at all, not even bittersweet memories.  *sobs*

[cranebump]

I like playing the regular story content. I prefer doing it with teams, but, since I seldom form them myself anymore, I mainly get teaming via pug TF's. I like making story-focused AE arcs, and playing through them from time to time (I should do more, but I feel compelled to review or give feedback, so it's like giving myself homework).

 

I just love the damned game, all the way around. So, yeah - playing is the reward.:-)

[Luminara]

I just like ogling butts.  And hitting things.  While ogling butts.

 

Also, butts.

[roleki]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Meanwhile, that shiny new prismatic salvage is selling on the AH for 22 mil a pop. Considering it takes 10 for one of those special costumes, that's 220 million. I expect the prices to drop as time goes on. But I do think its kind of funny. Or will it only be a matter of time before topics of "nerf prism drops" pop up in the forums?

I imagine they will settle in the 1M-3M range once everyone that goes nuts for such things finally settles down to realize they could have accumulated them organically.

 

As for the topic at hand, this is a game that lays literally millions of character options at your feet, and then expects you to invest (conservatively) 20 hours into each character in order to bring them to their full potential. 

 

To my mind, that model punishes experimentation and rewards cookie-cutter combos that lack any semblance of the imagination that went into making so many options available to the player in the first place.  

 

I find the real joy of this game lies in the  under-explored corners.  Nobody runs an X/Y, can I make that work?  What combo can damage (not necessarily defeat) the most enemies per click?   Can I make a Pylon completely and permanently unhittable?   

 

By removing the most significant barrier standing between me and the answers (that being 'time') I can find out for myself, then go ask another question, or, very important: revisit the question later on. 

 

I may not play the game the right way, but I would wager I've fired off a much wider array of powers than the average player, and in doing so answered more questions than I ever would have slogging through "the journey" on even a couple dozen characters.  

 

It's unfortunate that my approach to the game is being systematically weeded out, but I've already answered most of my questions, anyway.  It took 3 years and 300 some-odd alts, but, I got what I was looking for.

[Herotu]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

I just like ogling butts.  And hitting things.  While ogling butts.

 

Also, butts.

To the buttcave!

[Troo]

..and so the Butt League was formed by Butt Gun and Head Butt who could be seen floating above the city in their butt balloon.

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Troo

[Herotu]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

..and so the Butt League was formed by Butt Gun and Head Butt who could be seen floating above the city in their butt balloon.

 

I think Butt Gun was in a film I watched very late last night. I think it was called, "You Can Shove Your Butt Gun" ... erm, I mean ... <cough> I'm a fine upstanding citizen. I don't watch those sorts of films!

[Frostbiter]

Great, now we can never let Michael Bay see this thread.

[InvaderStych]

This is Tina Belcher's thread now. We're all just reading it.

[JasperStone]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

..and so the Butt League was formed by Butt Gun and Head Butt who could be seen floating above the city in their butt balloon.

 

I thought the league broke up.

Inner turmoil.

I think they called it 

...

The Butt Crack

[QuiJon]

3 hours ago, roleki said:

To my mind, that model punishes experimentation and rewards cookie-cutter combos that lack any semblance of the imagination that went into making so many options available to the player in the first place.  

The thing is I am more apt to make a experimental build when i have enough resources that i feel i can afford to take the chance. So when you change things like converting empyrean merits to reward merits IMO all you are doing is taking away a resource that i used, which means i have to work harder to earn resources for a new character, making it more likely that i will build and spend those resources on something i have seen over perform vs. taking a chance on something whimsical. 

I dont like micromanging the AH, and buying and converting etc to make billions of influence. I like to farm. I feel at least like i am playing the game while i do it. Yet between the patrol xp/infl thing and now the conversion of empyreans to reward merits, i feel more and more like the game designers are basically telling me that how i choose to play the game is wrong. For some reason a marketeer can in a fraction of the time i might take me to farm 3 levels and earn 20 empyrean merits to convert to 2 purples make a billion influence and buy 50 purples. Having never entered a mission door, or joined a team or arrested an enemy. Why is how i want to do things constantly under attack rather then that?

 

[roleki]

9 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

 For some reason a marketeer can in a fraction of the time i might take me to farm 3 levels and earn 20 empyrean merits to convert to 2 purples make a billion influence and buy 50 purples. Having never entered a mission door, or joined a team or arrested an enemy. Why is how i want to do things constantly under attack rather then that?

 

 

I sympathize with you, but, the boilerplate answer is that marketeers aren't adding piles of inf to the market, they are concentrating inf that is already there.  That's a little too simplistic a take on what's really going on, but it's correct enough that the distinction is evident.

[Glacier Peak]

17 hours ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

"Playing the game is its own reward," sure. Any game you decide to spend your time on should be fun. But with any game (or anything fun for that matter), establishing goals is an important part of gaining a sense of accomplishment when doing something fun. Rewards are an easy way to set goalposts. And there will always be people that argue rewards aren't good enough.  It doesn't help that "reward" is entirely subjective.

 

For me, making 1000 alts with any costume pieces I want without a paywall (or unlock requirements) is pretty good fun and a great reward.

Oh for sure! I got in to that in my second post - I created goals in game to enjoy.

[Ironblade]

10 hours ago, Ukase said:

I remember when CoH first shut down. It was bittersweet. I was playing this game way too much. I'd gained a lot of weight, just sitting on my ass, and instead of cooking an actual meal, it was pizza, pop tarts, all manner of foods starting with P. But if I could grab it with one hand and shove it into the gaping maw that was my mouth, that was the preferred food.

Firstly, I like Pop-Tarts and am literally eating pizza right now.  Don't judge me!  I don't eat Pop-Tarts more than once a week, though.

 

As for gaming, back during live this was the only online game I played and, some weeks, I would spend more time playing than I spent at work (40 hours).  I don't play as much now because, when the game shut down, I diversified into other games.  But I've been gaming in one form or another since I started with Dungeons and Dragons in 1979.  I don't have a problem with how much I game because it's a social activity and makes me think.  I hardly watch any television or movies but my Steam library has 64 games in it.  Of those, all but FIVE are multiplayer co-op.  Of the five that aren't, I haven't even installed three of them.

 

 

3 hours ago, Herotu said:

I think Butt Gun was in a film I watched very late last night. I think it was called, "You Can Shove Your Butt Gun" ... erm, I mean ... <cough> I'm a fine upstanding citizen. I don't watch those sorts of films!

Ever play Borderlands 3?  There's a rocket launcher you can get called the Porta Pooper 5000.  The projectiles look like poop and the gun talks.  You can guess what kind of lines it has.

[Glacier Peak]

11 hours ago, Ukase said:

My thoughts are a bit jumbled. 

I'd like to think I play this game to relax, but sometimes, doing the more challenging content, it's anything but relaxing. I lean forward in my seat, pay closer attention to where teammates are at, looking for threats...it's interesting. I couldn't possibly call it relaxing in any sense of the word. 

Fun is subjective. Parts of the game are fun. Parts of the game make me wish I'd never discovered it. While the journey is essentially the destination, like water, most of us are inclined to take the path of least resistance. 

Some folks would never imagine running at 0/1. It's too easy, and boring for them. They ramp it up to an appropriate level that challenges them. Sometimes, in lieu of ramping up the difficulty, they handicap their characters. Or both. 

Me, it's all depending on my mood. 

I remember when CoH first shut down. It was bittersweet. I was playing this game way too much. I'd gained a lot of weight, just sitting on my ass, and instead of cooking an actual meal, it was pizza, pop tarts, all manner of foods starting with P. But if I could grab it with one hand and shove it into the gaping maw that was my mouth, that was the preferred food. 
When it shut down, I started moving around, found rowing as an exercise, and turned it into a sport where I'm one of the top 100 rowers in the world in my age group. I used to be in the top 10, but a hernia repair slowed me down a bit. 

So, now, when I play, I don't want to waste time smelling any digital roses, usually. I want to reach my objective for the day, and log off. This game can suck 14 hours a day out of your life if you let it. I cannot really grasp how people can just "do nothing".  I struggle to find the amusement in RP, but hey, whatever's fun/interesting for you, go for it. I certainly like a cool looking costume in the costume creator as much as the next player, but in game, you can't really even see the costumes with the same detail unless you zoom in. And I don't play zoomed in, so costumes are kind of a waste of time for me. I can't see yours, I can't see mine, so what difference does it make for me? Zip! But, some of you can waste/spend/invest HOURS in a costume creation session. Makes me wonder how long some of you take to get dressed in the morning, lol. 

So, yeah, I can see where some folks really enjoy the routine or process of starting at level 1 and playing through. I do that myself, but I don't just mill about and do nothing. I get things done; I accomplish as much as I can in the 60 or 90 minutes I give myself to play. I just don't have the time (and even if I did, I don't want to spend that time!) doing nothing. 
When the game last shut down, I thought about how many hours I'd spent playing...and I had nothing to show for all that time. Some memories? Like that's going to do anything for me. Sure, I have some boxes the game's CDs came in. That does nothing for me. It's not nostalgic like the Amazing Spider Man comics. I place no value on these things, because I can't sell them. This is why I'm always vocal on these board about anything that will cause me to spend more time to reach a goal. If it's a new fun thing, okay, but other than that, why are they trying to waste my time? 


As it stands now, I can only consider one session a week "relaxing", where I lead a few folks into various content at a snail's pace. I'd rather go faster, but there's more than a couple of folks in this group that don't enjoy speeding through and would rather just go from mob to mob. And that's fine. I'm just in it for the bad puns. 

Great post Ukase! Saw a lot of parallels in my life similar to how you framed your play time and hobbies. I've been finding playing the game with a playlist or podcast going or a movie/ tv show is also a nice way to zone out or decompress. Hard to do when it's a PvP setting or big moment in an Incarnate raid, but easier when farming or running easier content. 

 

P.S. I was a sucker for the cheese and cracker sticks back in the day when I'd play lol