Would you like to see Statesman return?

[Solarverse]

So in another thread, there was a discussion about bringing back Statesman. In that thread, there was only a couple people who would prefer Statesman not vanish forever, however the vast majority who touched on the topic was very much against the idea in any form of any kind.

 

I could not fathom how players can let go of a fan favorite so easily. Statesman was the Superman of Cryptic Comics. In my mind, you don't just throw away an iconic hero like that forever. You not only kill storyline continuem, but also rob future generations of being able to enjoy the character as we did.

 

I also felt as though in the comic book world, it is not uncommon to bring a hero or a villain back from the dead. It opens up more storyline opportunities. I fell that in a world full of wonderful powers and possibilities, the sky isn't even the limit.

 

So I honestly could not fathom how anyone, much less the majority of people responding, could let go so easily, as if Statesman was garbage to be left in the trash. So my mind did what it does best, and I began to psychoanalyze the situation.

 

I ended up coming to the conclusion that this must have something to do with the hatred for NCSoft, or the hatred many have for Jack Emmert, and not so much any disdain towards the character or anything logical about bringing a hero back to life. I did this because I couldn't comprehend why anyone would not want him back. They gave their reasons, and I simply could not accept those reasons, especially in a comic book world, one of which I personally am very much a part of even outside this game. I literally write scripts for comics, one of which is my Avatar.

 

I honestly felt like there had to be some other underlying reason for not wanting Statesman back, and because of this, even offended one of the posters for dismissing their reasoning for not wanting this.

 

To be clear, I still disagree with their reasons, however, overanalyzing it was bad on my part. I shouldn't have but I jumped before I looked at where I would land.

 

So now, I want to hear what you all think of bringing back Statesman, why you do or do not wish for his return.

 

For me, as a script writer, I would bring him back fresh in a powerful storyline, mixed with emotional moments, epic battles, double crosses and sinister  reveals. I would give him a costume make-over, strip him of his previous powers and maybe even turn him into a Kheld. Maybe I would strip him of any and all powers and make him an Energy Rifle/Devices Blaster. The possibilities are endless. Seeing Statesman as a Tech U.S. warrior could be interesting in my eyes.

 

How about you? What would you prefer, and why? And I promise not to be dismissive this time.  :)

[Snarky]

I think in comics in general this goes one of two ways 1) The HERO who did X and we all remember and will never live up to  2) Revive everybody, it can be used in cheesy storylines and saves on writing another backstory to fill that slot.

[Arnabas]

Well, he was supposed to sort-of come back... Tyrant was going to reform and take up the name Statesman.

I don't think he was ever a "fan favourite" though. From what I remember at the time, the majority of people thought he was a dick.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

I find that it must be noted that not all of us, possibly even most of us, valued Statesman the way you do. I always found him written to be a pompous and short-sighted fool. So, his death had zero impact on me. His return is of no importance to me.

[Redlynne]

The only way to add Statesman content to the game, without opening up an array of cans of tentacles, would be to do it ALL as Flashbacks.  Pillar of Ice & Flame type of stuff (and all that).

 

That way, you GO BACK to when Statesman was alive (before the whole Who Will DERP? arc) and have "adventures" involving Statesman "back then" without upsetting the (misfired) canon of Who Will DERP?

 

As for "converting" Tyrant/Marcus Cole ... via import/naturalization to Paragon City (and thus abandoning Praetoria) ... that is a SERIOUSLY BAD IDEA.  For one thing, Lord Recluse would never stand for it ("YOU KILLED ME!" being a powerful motivation, for starters), and he would never be "our" Statesman.  He may look the same, but it makes about as much sense as letting the Reichsman fill in for Statesman.  Just Say NO.

[Obus Form]

Would love to see him return, and as an amateur writer and avid reader, also agree that bringing him back allows for deep and thorough storytelling that creates opportune moments of lore reveal, and other powers/factions development not yet revealed or fully understood.  It could even give birth to entire new concepts.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Obus Form

[Solarverse]

33 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I find that it must be noted that not all of us, possibly even most of us, valued Statesman the way you do. I always found him written to be a pompous and short-sighted fool. So, his death had zero impact on me. His return is of no importance to me.

I honestly didn't feel like that was so much different than Batman.  😄

 

And yeah, you're right, my views clearly do not represent anyone other than myself. I found him to be iconic, but that does not mean everyone else did.

[Dazl]

Might be getting the cart before the horse here. The situation between NCSoft and Homecoming needs to be resolved first.

 

However there is plenty of president in comics to have a hero return from the dead, so anything is possible. Not sure it would make much difference though. Seems most people don't know much about the game lore now or when the game was live. I know I didn't pay any attention to it.

[Obus Form]

5 minutes ago, Crimsonpyre said:

Might be getting the cart before the horse here. The situation between NCSoft and Homecoming needs to be resolved first.

 

However there is plenty of president in comics to have a hero return from the dead, so anything is possible. Not sure it would make much difference though. Seems most people don't know much about the game lore now or when the game was live. I know I didn't pay any attention to it.

Regarding lore interest or knowledge, I agree with you @Crimsonpyre.

 

Funnily enough, I never read any game dialogues nor stories during my play from launch day when I was 14 years old.  The only time I read it was when I saw Statesman die by Darren Wade's (who the fuck is no name Darren Wade?) stupid ritual circle.  At least...die to our dimension's Rularuu dream doctor or someone with a powerful background.

 

Then I decidedly read the entire lore bible a year after sunset, and now understand why everything is a Nemesis plot, and the unique story/birth of Rularuu.

 

Sadly, I agree that (anecdotal evidence only) less than the majority of players are interested in the depth of lore this game offers.  However, bringing back iconic statesman would be a great way (easy way?), lore wise, to introduce entirely new game concepts/zones/lore/powersets.  I don't think Statesman needs to be popular, just iconic.

 

As an adult reading lore, I find Statesman himself seems short sighted in his goals, lacking agency and long term strategy so clearly depicted by Recluse and the miss liberty TF that fights Recluse.

 

If Statesman comes back he needs to do it in a ridiculously dramatic fashion like:

- being infused with 1000 warshades/peaceboys required to resuscitate his incarnate body, giving him alien-origin godlike power, creating a new light/dark power set, and finally freeing him from the influence of the well

- giving his soul (and thus body) completely over to the well to truly become the Well Incarnate, thus giving birth to the next set of incarnate levels.  Thus we discover the true agency/motives of this anthropomorphic Well of Furies/Zeus that itself has fears/desires of the "plot device here" thing

- the Rikti resurrect him, perfect control while he maintains his personality, unlike Hero One.  With this we get a new power set, and more expansion or maps into the actual Rikti homework and learn about the peaceful Rikti who fear the battalion --> Batallion story time

- we fight Batallion, and as a last ditch effort to survive, Recluse finds Statesmen dead body, clones him and we win --> Statesmen is actually a puppet but now leads the Freedom Phalanx, while Recluse is siphoning the incarnate/battalion powers for himself --> dr Jero story line from DBZ with androids and merging powers of everyone into 1 super being

 

[EmmySky]

I could see maybe letting him be a ghost or energy aura and serve as a trainer somewhere remote and rarely visited, like fort trident.  I think you do see him in a way that not everyone does.  I never saw him as iconic or great, just another leader of a supergroup about which most of the story is based.

 

I agree with @Bill Z Bubba in that he was written rather pompous.  Jack was also rather pompous so maybe he was written in the voice of Jack, but other than that I dont really see people confusing the two.  Plenty of reasons to dislike each on their own merits.

 

My vote would be to let him stay dead (or my first paragraph above) and let the story continue.  Let someone else become the leader of a group that has a story to tell/play.  Maybe some of the other existing heroes could really shine.

[VileTerror]

That most recent thread, referenced previously up above:
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/15997-give-ms-liberty-a-break/

 

Some related reading, for previous discussions on this topic:

A discussion on the lore and the plans for the lore from the original Dev Team. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/14890-lore-ama-2020/

A call to revert things. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/4123-put-the-statesman-task-force-and-lord-recluse-strike-force-back-as-they-were/
A call to use Ouroboros. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/6267-add-the-old-lrsf-to-ouroboros/
Another call! https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/15104-statesman-back-in-the-lrsf/
Publish an article. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/7613-statesman-deserves-better/
Let's loot his corpse! https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/1580-statesman-is-dead/

 

And some tangential reading:
Hero's Hero. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/9198-down-memory-lane-a-heros-hero/
More Hero's Hero. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/14055-do-you-prefer-a-heros-hero-or-a-heros-epic/
When even are we? https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/1433-the-big-question-of-continuity/
Trying to unravel the lore timeline paradox. https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/15114-what-year-is-it-in-paragon-lore/
No.  Seriously.  WHEN even are we? https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/15543-is-it-time-for-comic-time/

 

 

 

I fall firmly in the camp of "keep 'em dead."  Even before I learnt of the association between Jack and States, I always felt Statesman was a weak, flimsy mish-mash of Superman and Captain America, and a dash of Thor, with none of the nuance or interesting depth of any of his forebears.  Eventually his character was written to be a self-absorbed pompous windbag, which only made him interesting in a sort of "how long until he gets laid low or killed" sort of way.  Huh, and will you just look at that?

I'm also keen on keeping Sister Psyche dead, and Darrin Wade.  

 

As I've said in the half-a-dozen other threads on this topic, if anyone gets to come back from the dead, it should be Malaise.  THAT would be fun!  Undead psychic artiste with a chip on his shoulder about someone spoiling his works of art's historic significance by bringing him back from the dead.  After all, a true artist is never appreciated in their own time.  How much frustration and rage would it inflict upon him to know that his name was but a mere footnote to Darrin Wade's ascension and subsequent fall at the hands of some random schmoe hero?

[VileTerror]

And, you know . . . what I REALLY want to see from Homecoming when it comes to the game lore?  More NEW stuff!

I really like @holymittens' fantastic work with the Rogue and Vigilante arcs.  They weren't perfect, but they were refreshing and impactful, and I got a big kick out of them.  

I'm happy to have lore established for NEW heroes and villains who leave their mark in the setting.

I'd be very, very happy to see lore for underused or unrealized content . . . like the -actual- Banished Pantheon, as opposed to Mot.

 

Let's pretend that someone leaked the most up-to-date lore bible, concept art, and content roadmap to the Homecoming Dev Team.  I would not want Homecoming to follow those documents to the letter.  I would like them to look at those leaks, then look to this community, and finally reflect upon themselves in each equal measure and answer the question:  "What's the best path for us to follow?"

I'd like to see the Homecoming Team find a nice balance between all three (again, pretending they had those official documents, and weren't just making assumptions based on the AMAs).

 

But more than any of that, I want to see more tools brought in to the mix to enable and empower players to tell and SHARE their own stories with one another.  After all, I'm not here for The Adventures of Statesman and Friends . . . I'm here to get to know the characters of my fellow players, and see where some compelling and enjoyable narratives form in those character interactions.

 

In short; forget about States.  We've got the opportunity to go to -interesting- places in the story now!

[Sif]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

I ended up coming to the conclusion that this must have something to do with the hatred for NCSoft, or the hatred many have for Jack Emmert, and not so much any disdain towards the character or anything logical about bringing a hero back to life.

1.) Statesman just didn't have much of a role in the game. He was on a lot of the marketing material, and in some late game stories, but that was really about it. It would be like if DC had used Superman on a lot of covers/logos, but he was only an occasional minor character in a few rare stories that most people never read. That tiny role is even smaller for anyone that played mostly on villain side.

2.) Comics, for a lot of people, have a bad reputation for every death being a fakeout. CoH hasn't really gone down that path yet, so doing that with Statesman will likely worry a lot of people that dislike that aspect of a lot of comics

3.) Flashback missions are a way to further explore dead characters, without going "lulz nvm!"

 

Deciding to bring Statesman back (I don't consider Tyrant having to take up the mantle to be the same thing) just feels like lazy writing to me. Comics do it because it's profitable, not because it makes good stories.

[Oubliette_Red]

Personally, I'd rather see Hero 1 back in the game in a more active role now that he's been rescued from the Rikti.

[Abraxus]

I would love to see a story line where the forces of evil are winning.  Things in Paragon City, the Rogue Isles, and Praetoria, are looking grim for anyone not already on the wrong side of justice.  The people suffer, and things stand on the brink of darkness everlasting.  At the last possible moment, during a titanic final stand when all seems lost, the Well of the Furies decides to balance the scales once again, by bringing Statesman back.  His resurrection indeed gives the forces of good just the morale, and power boost they need to pull victory from the jaws of defeat. 

 

But, rather than being the end of the story (which can never happen), instead leave it as a major battle won to prevent the forces of evil from dominating the future, knowing that the struggle goes on.  The daily efforts of every hero will still be needed in every city, to carry on the never ending efforts to foil the plans of those who would bring darkness, and doom to everything they touch.

 

At least that's what popped in my head the moment I read this thread.

[Luminara]

You are the protagonist in Co*, not Statesman or Recluse.  You.  This is your story, not theirs, and anything that happens to them is incidental.  They're plot devices, nothing more.  There are millions of other plot devices waiting to be used.

[Lines]

Nah, I'm good. The significance of death is more important to me than the significance of Statesman.

 

I'm down for someone else taking up the mantel or role, though.

[Apparition]

34 minutes ago, Lines said:

Nah, I'm good. The significance of death is more important to me than the significance of Statesman.

 

I'm down for someone else taking up the mantel or role, though.

 

Before the shutdown, it was originally planned that Praetorian Marcus Cole would reform and take on the role of Statesman.  The vast majority of the world would be lead to believe that Statesman had returned, but a few would know that it was really a reformed Tyrant.

[Snarky]

I think that its a moot point.  Not for simplistic reasons.  For meta reasons.

 

The future of CoX is.... in it's past.  

 

The Ouroboros gives us a stock steady tool to investigate (repair/destroy/rewrite) various timelines.  It is an integral part of the game already. And, indeed, the pathway to Incarnates and the end game.

 

The reality.  We are players in an MMORPG. (unless I am a brain in a jar, in which case you folks may/may not exist.)  By structure we log in and redo (endlessly, thanks Homecoming team!) the same stuff over and over.  Do you know how many times I have done the Dam TF in the last few months?!?  How many times do I have to stop this Dam problem?!?  Surely there is another dam solution?!?

 

Writing content for timelines and revisions and alternates of what the City is while exploring its depth of groups and plots is a great possible trove of writing/arcs/plotlines/incarnate stuff.  Including Statesman stuff. All while adding breadth to the game without altering it.  And if part of a storyline bothers you, either ignore it, or write an AE timeline mission and erase it!  (might get picked up and used.)

 

Bonus.  All of it is City of Reuse.  We recycle! 

 

 

[The Bobby Llama]

The original devs certainly weren't going to bring Statesman back to life.  Lore AMA #338:

Quote

Q) If City of Heroes came back would you bring back Statesman and Sister Psyche? (@Nyght Blade)
A) Sean McCann (Dr. Aeon) - Personally, no. I hate it when comic book characters are brought back to life.
A) Chris Behrens (Baryonyx) - Same, though we did discuss it. My opinion is that there were other, more interesting stories to tell in the context of their death that wouldn’t work if they just came back to life.
A) John Hegner (Protean) - Death is such a formative part of life. We had so many places we wanted the death of those two iconic characters to take us. Ms. Liberty and Manticore both have these huge gaping wounds in their hearts now, so many possibilities to go with that. We fleshed out a number of ideas as well, and they shook things up something fierce.

Any plans for getting Statesman back would have been finding some sort of replacement instead.  See:  AMA #9, #239, #256, #309.

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by The Bobby Llama

[Dreamboat]

While his death was extremely lacklustre in my eyes, I'm not too bothered about him staying gone. Seriously, read the Top Cow comic run - guy's a total ass! But then again, in that comic, so is everyone except Citadel...

If he was to be brought back in any fashion I'd prefer it to be Ouro content. It would be cool if there was some form of story arc centered around his past, maybe his initial time fighting crime in Paragon, so you get him in his original costume, get to meet some of the other heroes of the time, etc. I'd enjoy that, but just zooping him back into life, nah. 
Definitely against the idea of Tyrant taking over for him as well. He's not the kind of villain that can or should be redeemed, in my opinion.

 

EDIT: I do like the idea others have already said about Hero-1 becoming that new figurehead. Make him the Atlas trainer!

Edited March 2, 2020 by Dreamboat

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Statesman an Icon? Maybe for some, but not many in my experience. I myself am certainly an ardent detractor of Statesman, tend to see Sister Psyche in a pretty negative light as well. Manticore im mostly just kinda bleh about. Positron and Synapse well they are not exactly without their moments that bordered more on mad scientist then super hero.

 

Funny enough its the young heroes so many in game mock I am a bigger fan of. Fusionette and Temblor, The sisters we save during the LGTF. what encounters we do have with them in game are ones that I enjoy and make them feel like characters mine would actually be friends with and hang with at the D.

 

Bad enough how many alternate marcus coles I see running around these days. There is Statesboy, Empire Statesmans, Statesmans., Marcus cole, marcus cole with an i for the L, God King Marcus Cole, and so many more.

 

I miss Alexis, her father can burn in the 9 hells for infinity and beyond!

[Dreamboat]

3 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Fusionette and Temblor

Yeah, they're great. I think a big part of what makes them good is that we get to actively see them progress alongside us via their joining Vanguard and so on.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On the subject of what would of been with Tyrant. Well my own personal twist would of been for him to after getting the entire worlds worship, steadily move towards what I call the Tyrant State era. I see him as doing the same thing that happened in cimorea, and fusing with the nictus for even more power and helping the Path of the Dark spread. At this point we would get a true redemption arc for Recluse, now the worlds one hope to match the doppleganger of his dead frenemy.  This would of been an era of the city being ruined, to help pave the way for zone by zone upgrades like AP got.

 

Or something along those lines anyways.

[tidge]

I have one long-standing gripe against Statesman: IIRC the character was an Invulnerability Tanker. I can tell you that Invulnerability Tankers (at launch) played nothing like Statesman (crap damage, but also being rooted in one spot). This may seem petty but it has ALWAYS bothered me.

 

Spoilers (not spoilers): Darren Wade isn't dead.

Edited March 2, 2020 by tidge