Discussion: Disabling XP No Longer Increases Influence

[Yomo Kimyata]

Let me ask the question to the farmers out there:  what’s your end game?  Is it to amass just enough inf to equip an alt you are trying to build, or is it to just build big piles of inf, or other?  Do you farm to buy something in particular, or do you find it peaceful and fun, or other?

 

It is clear that Jimmy et al are concerned about inf entering the system, and the fastest way that happens is through 50s farming.  The venom towards AFK farming is clear, and I personally agree.  It is detrimental to the system, but it benefits the individuals who engage in it, so the way to avoid moral hazard is through fiat.  That sucks if you were benefitting, and I realize it’s cold comfort to hear it’s better for everyone when it’s not as better for you as it used to be.

 

 

[Troo]

7 hours ago, Lines said:

 

I actually agree with you on this point. I don't think it's particularly great that the two best ways of making money in the game have little to do with the core of the game. Diversifying ways of making income would be a challenge though.

 

It's kind of a two-pronged situation that's led us here. On one hand, the rewards of the game never really updated to match where the IO economy went (and it went wild on Live) and on the other hand, players found and created optimal ways to make money that exceeded the expectations of the game.

 

Depending on if Homecoming's market finally reaches a point of "This is normal forever" it could be possible to adjust balance accordingly. On the other hand, adjusting that balance could push the prices up... Ugh, I don't like thinking about this stuff. It goes in circles makes my brain go gooey.

Reward Merits for doing content and the associated drops are the third way, right?

 

Options and balance should exist between Content, Crafting, and Grinding (farming). This is as it should be, correct?

 

 

Edit: (and not directed at @Lines)

If one method is able to exploit several game mechanics, frankly, there should be an expected correction.

Some like to grind architect entertainment missions because they find it relaxing and effective, I get that, and have no problem with it. Who's not okay with folks having fun?

 

Want to blame someone?

Look no further than folks who post or chat about making ridiculous amounts per hour. Double for those who brag about doing it while away from the keyboard. Like it or not, there it is..

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Troo

[Hexquisite]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

Sorry, a desire to exploit the game and it being ok is absurd. Afk farming should be nerfed into the ground.

 

Nerfed harder than Regen. Twice.

And then we need to nerf regen. Thrice. So it doesn't get jealous.

[Myrmidon]

21 minutes ago, Hexquisite said:

And then we need to nerf regen. Thrice. So it doesn't get jealous.

Once all of the Regen join the cult of Willpower, the circle shall be complete.

[Coyotedancer]

59 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Let me ask the question to the farmers out there:  what’s your end game?  Is it to amass just enough inf to equip an alt you are trying to build, or is it to just build big piles of inf, or other?  Do you farm to buy something in particular, or do you find it peaceful and fun, or other?

 

It is clear that Jimmy et al are concerned about inf entering the system, and the fastest way that happens is through 50s farming.  The venom towards AFK farming is clear, and I personally agree.  It is detrimental to the system, but it benefits the individuals who engage in it, so the way to avoid moral hazard is through fiat.  That sucks if you were benefitting, and I realize it’s cold comfort to hear it’s better for everyone when it’s not as better for you as it used to be.

 

 

 

As I've said before, I'm strictly an active farmer, and I mostly do it for fun. It's a very zen sort of thing... 

 

Since I'm also pretty much completely burnt out on the early levels of the game these days, it's also useful for jump-starting my own new alts to the part of the game that I actually still find fun. (That's where the dual-boxing comes in. I'll door-sit the lowbie for a round or two with Harry to get them into the 30's.)

 

Pretty much all of the INF I make gets plowed right back into the crew's builds. I don't find amassing a huge pile of INF simply for its own sake all that interesting. I'd rather use it for things that DO interest me. Like kitting out my new Whatever.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Troo]

6 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Once all of the Regen join the cult of Willpower, the circle shall be complete.

Never!

Energy/Regen til the end.. Do What You Must!

p l e a s e  n o  m o r e  n e r f s

Edited July 21, 2020 by Troo

[Myrmidon]

2 minutes ago, Troo said:

never!

Sure as the grave, you must accept what is.🤣

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Let me ask the question to the farmers out there:  what’s your end game?  Is it to amass just enough inf to equip an alt you are trying to build, or is it to just build big piles of inf, or other?  Do you farm to buy something in particular, or do you find it peaceful and fun, or other?

 

It is clear that Jimmy et al are concerned about inf entering the system, and the fastest way that happens is through 50s farming.  The venom towards AFK farming is clear, and I personally agree.  It is detrimental to the system, but it benefits the individuals who engage in it, so the way to avoid moral hazard is through fiat.  That sucks if you were benefitting, and I realize it’s cold comfort to hear it’s better for everyone when it’s not as better for you as it used to be.

 

 

 

I farm to make enough INF to kit out a couple of alts (typically about a billion INF each), and to also be sure that I have enough INF on hand to give out a minimum of 200 million INF per week.

 

I run two or three instanced Rikti mothership raids per week on Excelsior.  A while ago, I started giving out a prize of a minimum of 100 million INF for landing the kill shot on the Rikti drop ship.  It's a bit of an incentive (because most people don't even know that the instanced MSR exists so it can take a long time to form), and a way to give back to the Excelsior community.  Sometimes, other people donate INF towards the kill shot prize, but most of the time the entire kill shot prize comes out of my pocket.

 

I know that marketeering is a better way to do it, but I look at and work with spreadsheets for my job all day, every day.  I just can't bring myself to bother with it.

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

Once all of the Regen join the cult of Willpower, the circle shall be complete.

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

Once all of the Regen join the cult of Willpower, the circle shall be complete.

(couldn't resist, cause what better use has this thread become than a meme war!)

[Parabola]

4 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

However, I'm almost certain the complaints are coming from players who powerlevel/team their way to fifty.  This means far fewer merits and drops.  Now, I have little sympathy for players who powerlevel to fifty and don't have enough influence to kit out their character immediately.  But a player that teams exclusively could perhaps use a little help, especially casual players that have limited time to play.  Maybe a modest increase in drop rates for teams? 

This is possibly the heart of the matter right here. Teaming extensively leads to a poorer character unless they market to some degree. If the desire is to make it so that a regular player feels that they can build up all the funds they want, without feeling compelled to farm or marketeer, then tweaking the drop rates based on the actual number of players in a team might be a good place to look.

 

Of course multi-boxing farmers would have to be considered if any such change was made. It's possible the upcoming afk farming adjustments might take care of that one though depending on the route they take.

[Lines]

4 hours ago, Troo said:

Reward Merits for doing content and the associated drops are the third way, right?

Yeah, there are definitely solutions to be found in reward merits.

 

One big change that really needs to happen is that everybody who participated in an arc get the merits, not just the arc holder. But that comes with a few caveats.

 

As others have said, looking at drop distribution while teamed would help.

 

I've found as a trend that characters I solo with can end up with 50-100mil inf by 50, plus at least a few sets, with little effort on my part, whereas support characters who teamed sometimes end up with just 5-10mil and generic IOs. I see that as a design problem.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Lines

[Jimmy]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

Yeah, the way the bolded part was worded was real professional. eyeroll emote here

 

I feel like this is one of those "wait and see what they come up with" things but I'm sure just like the "we are banning RMTers" phase from last fall I'm sure it'll catch up a bunch of unrelated activities/accounts but everyone will be happy because haha the farmers got screwed. Still haven't got a few accounts back from the RMT thing, by the way. If anyone from the GM staff is reading this I'd be happy to help you figure out why whatever algorithm you use to find RMTers is shit.

Not sure where you're getting your information, but:

1. As far as I'm aware we didn't have any complaints about false positives which weren't either resolved or retracted (and it's possible I'm mis-remembering as it was 10 months ago, but I think there was only one complaint, and it was quickly retracted)
2. Accounts that bought influence were only banned for 2 weeks, not permanently

Beyond that we generally don't discuss actions related to individual accounts publicly. As always, if you have any concerns about actions on your accounts please submit a support ticket.

 

6 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Hopefully they'll come up with something more clever than that. An "activity timer" would not only bite people who had to step away for awhile, but it would be a royal pain in the rump for all of us who dual-box. 

 

Granted, they may see THAT as a feature rather than a problem, but-

That's why it's not happened yet - there's no simple way to do this that doesn't also screw up normal gameplay.

 

It's also why teleport macros still exist. We don't want to remove it until the legitimate uses have an alternative.

[arcane]

Well, based on the replies I got overnight, I see we’re back to dishonest portrayals of our arguments, gaslighting people by implying no nerf ever occurred, and shaming them for not adopting superior playstyles. Great. If this is how you want to treat people, fine. Just be sure you never expect any respect in return.

Edited July 21, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[UltraAlt]

4 hours ago, Lines said:

Yeah, there are definitely solutions to be found in reward merits.

 

One big change that really needs to happen is that everybody who participated in an arc get the merits, not just the arc holder. But that comes with a few caveats.

 

As others have said, looking at drop distribution while teamed would help.

 

I've found as a trend that characters I solo with can end up with 50-100mil inf by 50, plus at least a few sets, with little effort on my part, whereas support characters who teamed sometimes end up with just 5-10mil and generic IOs. I see that as a design problem.

 

I remember long, long ago on a server long since probably discarded even possibly before the sunset, that I had a defender.

My character was like in the mid-teens or twenties level-wise. I didn't have enough influence to buy enhancements for most of my power slots.

This was in those sometimes forgotten days when there was no Wentworths. There were no crafted enhancements. You might win a costume contest, or some good soul might give you some influence.

The character was stuck like that. I couldn't even level as fast as the rest of the team because I was an empathy defender. I was healing people most of the time and the xp came from killing things. 

Everytime I managed to level, my gear was getting weaker and weaker. I was outleveling its usefulness and the new enhancements cost even more than before. Not only couldn't I benefit the team as much by healing, I was having a harder time getting what few kills I could because my attacks were less accurate/powerful.

It really did suck. I kept the team alive and they leveled faster than me because I was keeping them out of debt by healing them.

(but I alt jump, and alt jump I did)

 

Then things changed.

There was Wentworths and the University. I could craft my way to enough influence for gear.

 

I think it took a good while for them to fix the XP gap so that I could actually level at the same rate as my teammates.

Things were looking better.

 

At some point, you don't need to have trillions of influence. You shouldn't need it.

Honestly, I have more than I need, but I still like to play the market game (best PVP that THE CITY has ever had).

I don't farm. I don't turn off earning XP to get more influence.

 

I am really sorry to hear that Gold Farmer tried to attack COH in these current incarnation of the game. I do consider Gold Farming to be an attack.

Possibly this is one of the reasons that I have such a strong dislike for AE farmers (really any type of farming).

 

And I'm really glad that I don't have to start every play session by putting the new batch of gold farmers on ignore ... every single day.

 

So, I don't know what you are doing correctly to keep them at bay, but I really appreciate all the DEVs that have put work in keeping them away.

Thanks.

Edited July 21, 2020 by UltraAlt

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

This benefited everyone, even the farmers who cried foul due to not understanding economics. It was a net positive change.

 

It may have been a net positive change for the economy as a whole, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was a net negative change for some players. And telling me I don’t know what’s in my own wallet as well as you do because I am apparently stupid and uneducated  is truly high arrogance. You are lying to my face and insulting me all at once. I’d prefer you stop.

Edited July 21, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[arcane]

The idea that I, the ONLY person in this thread that knows how long it took me to kit out a new alt before and after the nerf, am so ignorant that I can perceive increased buying power as decreased buying power... is so tremendously insulting I can’t wrap my head around it.

 

Easily the worst sneering condescension I’ve ever seen in this community since CoH live i0. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[Rathulfr]

I'm also the only person in this thread who knows how long it took me to kit out my new alts before and after the nerf.  My perception is that my buying power has remained about the same, and is actually better in many cases, because prices for some items have dropped since the nerf.  The few items whose cost has remained high over the same period appear to have been unchanged, for the most part (aside from normal supply/demand fluctuations).  To me, this indicates that the nerf was successful in addressing a problem with inflation.

 

Do I make significantly less Inf per 6 minute farm run?  Yes, I won't deny that.  But I'm still making quite a bit of Inf per farm run, and usually only need to run 1 or 2 more times to make up the difference.  It's not that great an inconvenience to spend another 10-15 minutes farming for a few million more Inf.  Suggesting that playing the game for a few more minutes to get more stuff is massively distressing is also insulting to me.  YMMV.

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Rathulfr
spelling/formatting

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I'm also the only person in this thread who knows how long it took me to kit out my new alts before and after the nerf.  My perception is that my buying power has remained about the same, and is actually better in many cases, because prices for some items have dropped since the nerf.  The few items whose cost has remained high over the same period appear to have been unchanged, for the most part (aside from normal supply/demand fluctuations).  To me, this indicates that the nerf was successful in addressing a problem with inflation.

 

Do I make significantly less Inf per 6 minute farm run?  Yes, I won't deny that.  But I'm still making quite a bit of Inf per farm run, and usually only need to run 1 or 2 more times to make up the difference.  It's not that great an inconvenience to spend another 10-15 minutes farming for a few million more Inf.  Suggesting that playing the game for a few minutes to get more stuff is massively distressing is also insulting to me.  YMMV.

I am not suggesting that playing the game for a few minutes more is massively distressing.

 

I am suggesting that people lying about the very existence of those few extra minutes and saying they are a figment of imagination because I am some deficient uneducated fool is massively insulting and that’s a little distressing.

 

See the difference?

 

EDIT: threw you a positive reaction emoji for not calling me stupid. Wasn’t that easy lol.

Edited July 21, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[tidge]

11 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I am suggesting that people lying about the very existence of those few extra minutes and saying they are a figment of imagination because I am some deficient uneducated fool is massively insulting and that’s a little distressing.

[Lines]

23 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Do I make significantly less Inf per 6 minute farm run?  Yes, I won't deny that.  But I'm still making quite a bit of Inf per farm run, and usually only need to run 1 or 2 more times to make up the difference.  It's not that great an inconvenience to spend another 10-15 minutes farming for a few million more Inf.  Suggesting that playing the game for a few more minutes to get more stuff is massively distressing is also insulting to me.  YMMV.

Just out of curiosity, I don't suppose you have an estimated income difference as a percentage from farming?

[Haijinx]

11 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Once all of the Regen join the cult of Willpower, the circle shall be complete.

All is proceeding as I have foreseen ... 

[Patti]

What constitutes "interacting" though?  What about role players?

[Coyotedancer]

WIllpower is Love.

 

(Yeah. I'm biased. Total WP fan-girl and all that.)

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, Lines said:

Just out of curiosity, I don't suppose you have an estimated income difference as a percentage from farming?

 

Inf* (A) + enhancement drops (B) + salvage drops (C) + common IO recipe drops (D) + set IO recipe drops (E) + XP (F)

 

Empty salvage, recipe and enhancement inventories before beginning.  Screenshot of XP and inf* before and after run.

 

Enhancement and common IO recipe drops should be calculated at vendor value.

 

Salvage drops should be calculated at average market value.  Each type of salvage should be checked individually, as opposed to simply counting the number of each category of rarity and assuming that all salvage in a category has the same value, to ensure an accurate appraisal.  Note that converters are categorized as salvage.

 

Set recipe drops should be calculated at average market value, and should include recipes the subject would keep rather than sell (a penny saved is a penny earned)

 

A+B+C+D+E, then A+B+C+D+E+F, compare the two totals to determine the percentage difference.

 

At least ten runs should be conducted.  A hundred would even out the variability of drops more effectively, but a very (very) rough estimate can be obtained with ten.