Focused Feedback: Power Changes (Build 1)

[PhoenixV117]

16 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

You have the opportunity now to copy your blasters to test and run some missions with them, then give feedback to the devs as to how exactly it makes them trash, give them some data to back it up. That's what this thread is for.

 

If you can do things like run the same mission on live and on test and say how they fared differently you are more likely to get their attention. Just saying it will make them trash without having even tried it isn't going to get you anywhere I'm afraid, you need to show them.

I mean. On live I have managed to make it so I can rotate barrier rune and mellee hybrid so that I can survive in +4x8 nerfing how long rune lasts is just going to make it so I have to wait inbetween fights... what’s the point ? What are they trying to achieve. Why should I have to prove that it becomes trash when they haven’t given a good reason as to why it needs nerfing. 

 

Like i said, I’ll just drop playing the characters that rely on it for defence and play cheese things like a scrapper or a brute. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by PhoenixV117

[CaptainLupis]

20 minutes ago, PhoenixV117 said:

I mean. On live I have managed to make it so I can rotate barrier rune and mellee hybrid so that I can survive in +4x8 nerfing how long rune lasts is just going to make it so I have to wait inbetween fights... what’s the point ? What are they trying to achieve. Why should I have to prove that it becomes trash when they haven’t given a good reason as to why it needs nerfing. 

 

Like i said, I’ll just drop playing the characters that rely on it for defence and play cheese things like a scrapper or a brute. 

You only need to prove it becomes trash if you really want it to stay as it is. If you don't care enough about the change then ignore it and play scrappers and brutes.

[Erratic1]

15 hours ago, Wavicle said:

There’s already a feeling that the erasure of AT distinctions has exacerbated the degree to which Support and CC lose value in the high levels. While I agree that flexibility is good, it would be nice if all ATs were (roughly) equally valued.

 

If Support/CC lose value in the higher levels that has to due with the ability of most ATs to build not to care if mobs are CC'd because you're tough enough you don't care what the mobs do and tough enough to withstand their attacks without being buffed or them debuffed not because non-support/cc classes are suddenly applying cc's, buffs, and debuffs. It is an outgrowth of the IO system favoring defensive buffs all over the place.

 

Had the IO system favored damage buffs to the same extent then we'd be talking about how Controllers/Corruptors/Defender/Masterminds don't really need anyone and those AT's respective forums would be all about Pylon times.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I didn't think it was possible to make the game even easier.  I will always be amazed by this.

[Linea]

I would rather see Rune balanced with slightly lower magnitudes, but retaining the 90s duration.

• resists 26 max on a defender, instead of 39.
• Status 6 instead of 10
• or Scaling Status 4:  Status 10 for 20s, followed by Status 4 for for the entire duration of 90s 

[ScarySai]

I'd like to see zero compromises on rune, personally. There is no logic behind singling it out as it is.

[Bopper]

56 minutes ago, Linea said:

I would rather see Rune balanced with slightly lower magnitudes, but retaining the 90s duration.

• resists 26 max on a defender, instead of 39.
• Status 6 instead of 10
• or Scaling Status 4:  Status 10 for 20s, followed by Status 4 for for the entire duration of 90s 

I'd be happy with those options as well. Perhaps the other T5 Origin powers could get similar treatment so that they can have a 90s duration.

[arthurh35353]

7 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I'd be happy with those options as well. Perhaps the other T5 Origin powers could get similar treatment so that they can have a 90s duration.

This change seems to be reinforcing the thought that mezz protection should be an AT only benefit or buried so deep in power pools that you have to warp your build to include (Acrobatics or Origin Pool), even though I'm no longer seeing a real benefit for keeping minor mezz protection for all locked away.

 

I'd still love to see the Epic armors get 4 Mag hold/stun protection. It's level 35 plus and low enough mezz protection that you can't just ignore entire teams of mobs mezz protection, but you are no longer just totally stuck either.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

I'd like to see zero compromises on rune, personally. There is no logic behind singling it out as it is.

This. All this change is doing is reinforcing the tired belief that Pool Powers "have to suck" unless you're named Hasten. Even the much-loved Tough/Weave are weak for the ATs that really want that kind of effect and are propped up by set bonus/global IO mule slotting.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Linea said:

I would rather see Rune balanced with slightly lower magnitudes, but retaining the 90s duration.

• resists 26 max on a defender, instead of 39.
• Status 6 instead of 10
• or Scaling Status 4:  Status 10 for 20s, followed by Status 4 for for the entire duration of 90s 

I would be ok with this option. Cut all T5 origin power effects by a 3rd and then standardize their recharges around 90s.

[bigfashizzel]

The real impact is that RoP can't be stacked with Melee incarn for full-time mez protection right? 

Seems reasonable to me to gate mez protection behind primary/secondary powersets or destiny incarn. 

I'm not sure of the significance here given that there's a temp power that accomplishes this, unless for some reason that's unacceptable? 

If that temp power were less expensive would this be as problematic for people?  Or is it just for the "no temps" feeling?

 

 

[Arcadio]

I'm having a hard time believing RoP losing 1/3 its duration is destroying the power, especially when it was buffed in other ways.

 

With that being said, I definitely agree that these pool T5 powers should be stronger across the board. More so considering that the classes most likely to trivialize the game all have defensive secondaries, meaning they don't get much out of these powers. Where as squishy ATs have only a handful of places to get decent defenses without becoming a billion-dollar build.

[ironjoe]

On 3/15/2021 at 5:04 PM, Vanden said:

You'd trigger a whole bunch of bombs in the final hallway.

Come run Underground on Everlasting. The only way we do it is charge tactics. The raid leaders talk about old snipe tactics from live but while I have been on the trial dozens of times, I have never done it that way. Just always, "Onward for glory!"

[Tater Todd]

I'm not a fan of the change to Rune of Protection.  My Nature/Rad Defender uses the power to keep from getting mezzed (as well as other uses) since I'm often jumping in and out of melee in close proximity to the Tanker/Brute.  The change to how the power functions is great and is much needed and welcomed but the reduction to duration seems like an unnecessary alteration.

If this change ends up going live I hope that it would receive another look over in the future.  I would also like to add a reminder to those who would argue break frees are an alternative; break frees are not endless so that's not always an option but at the end of the day Mezz happens and not every AT was designed to easily shrug it off so "it is what it is" I suppose...but I don't like it! lol

Edited March 18, 2021 by Tater Todd

[Cheli]

12 hours ago, CaptainLupis said:

You only need to prove it becomes trash if you really want it to stay as it is. If you don't care enough about the change then ignore it and play scrappers and brutes.

There isn't some mystical variable that "testing" is going to prove; if your anti-mez rotation as a defender or controller relies on 90s of uptime on RoP, the ability being reduced to 60s means you've lost 30s of mez protection with nothing to make up for it. Builds that previously had no worry of being mezzed, now have 30s of worrying about being mezzed.

 

 

4 hours ago, Tater Todd said: 

I would also like to add a reminder to those who would argue break frees are an alternative; break frees are not endless so that's not always an option but at the end of the day Mezz happens and not every AT was designed to easily shrug it off so "it is what it is" I suppose...but I don't like it! lol

 

Break frees also don't stop your defensive toggles from dropping and the 6-8 attacks/more mezzes launched while you reactivate them from hitting you 😞 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Cheli

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Cheli said:

 

Break frees also don't stop your defensive toggles from dropping and the 6-8 attacks/more mezzes launched while you reactivate them from hitting you 😞 

They do if you use them in advance.

[Monos King]

I use RoP on my bio and regens for the extra res and solely for the extra res. I'd prefer this one not go through.

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Cheli said:

Break frees also don't stop your defensive toggles from dropping and the 6-8 attacks/more mezzes launched while you reactivate them from hitting you 😞 

Defensive toggles don't drop when mezzed.

[Wavicle]

12 minutes ago, macskull said:

Defensive toggles don't drop when mezzed.

I assumed he meant suppressed or was referring to Debuff toggles.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Wavicle

[CaptainLupis]

9 hours ago, Cheli said:

There isn't some mystical variable that "testing" is going to prove; if your anti-mez rotation as a defender or controller relies on 90s of uptime on RoP, the ability being reduced to 60s means you've lost 30s of mez protection with nothing to make up for it. Builds that previously had no worry of being mezzed, now have 30s of worrying about being mezzed.

 

 

 

Break frees also don't stop your defensive toggles from dropping and the 6-8 attacks/more mezzes launched while you reactivate them from hitting you 😞 

Worrying about it is not the same as it happening. If people show just how badly affected they are in those 30 seconds, rather than saying they are worried about it, it might get you somewhere. With the amount of defence most people roll with these days you may find that you don't need to keep using RoP full time and can use it as reactionary thing if a mez happens, rather than trying to trying to keep mez protection running full time. But if you just talk about it, do no testing, it will go live as is, and it will be too late to do anything about it.

 

And defensive toggles do not drop when you are mezzed, they suppress, so you don't need to toggle them back on. Only toggles which affect enemies drop.

Edited March 19, 2021 by CaptainLupis

[Myrmidon]

On 3/17/2021 at 3:47 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

 

So I wanna highlight this because the latter is actually super super important to differentiate. If Mez RESISTANCE, IE the ability to cut down the time you spend mezzed were prevalent to take, that would be a huge boon for squishies while not really mattering too much to armored classes as they already have protection and do not get mezzed much if at all. The main thing about being mezzed is that being unable to act sucks, let alone for 8+ seconds on top of more mezzes piling onto you to extend the mag and duration. I for one would gladly choose "oh, I may get mezzed but only for like a second or two" over other options any day.

 

 

You're spot on as well here. The real problem is that so many pool powers are just underdeveloped to the point of not being competitive with other picks, not only within other pools (we all know the top pool power choices) but from primary picks as well. Outside Air Superiority with it being a very nice mez, the other pool attacks are all either very situational or not powerful enough to be considered over another pick for most AT's. I feel like if the pool attacks were treated more like epics (many have TINY recharges and thus tiny damage), and relegated to have better niches (Flurry is an actual ST destroyer on a long recharge, Air Sup is more of a mez, Jump Kick is in between with good damage and a decent chance to knock) and then give them the Fighting Pool treatments where the more investment in a pool the better all the abilities get (each speed power taken boosts the others, perhaps granting end reduction on Hasten and Whirlwind, damage on Flurry, etc) could go a long way.

 

After all, your point where you are getting all these powers INSTEAD of primary powers should not be a trap.

As usual, GB brings up the best points. This idea is definitely something that could help add some diversity to character builds.

[golstat2003]

On 3/17/2021 at 6:14 PM, Wavicle said:

There’s already a feeling that the erasure of AT distinctions has exacerbated the degree to which Support and CC lose value in the high levels. While I agree that flexibility is good, it would be nice if all ATs were (roughly) equally valued.

 

I don't think this is possible 100% or even 50% of the time during game play. And I'm fine with that.

[Linea]

Even being mezzed for a short duration is essentially an insta-kill on squishies, and for that matter many non-squishies.   That stun that finally punches through the tanks protection, drops the tank almost instantly.   A measly 50 dps incoming in a capped out tank that gets stunned can instantly turn into 2500 or even 5000 dps.  Oops, you're dead in half a second.  (I use Rune/Hybrid/Rune on those armors, particularly resist armors, in high-mez situations.  It totally sucks when your tank gets stunned.   As a side note, I'd totally be in favor of doubling resist armors status protection for this very reason)

 

A standard rotation is: Rune/Hybrid/Rune/30s   gap.   That gap is negligible in normal content as it can be spread out while moving between mobs, and most fights don't last 5+m

Revised Rotation is:  Rune/Hybrid/30s gap/Rune/30s gap/Hybrid/Rune/60s gap/Hybrid.  Many more gaps, and a maximum on-time of 3m instead of 5m. 

 

While my Time/ will be less effected due to both higher recharge and the ability to do an alternate Force of Nature build, pretty much all the other squishy builds will be significantly negatively impacted.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Linea

[PirateCrew]

Not seeing strong logic behind the Rune of Protection 33% duration reduction.  Increasing the other similar powers' duration or effectiveness is equally valid given what the patch notes state...and has the benefit of making more pools interesting (they are not, for me, right now).  If RoP is "too good" according to those with the power to initiate this change and the ability to peer into the stats, just say it - the need for a change would be much easier to understand if "50% of builds have this power now, it's Hasten 2nd edition" or "Look at all the melee players dropping their T9s in favor of RoP" (though maybe that points to a different issue & solution).

 

In my experience, RoP is a reasonably good power as-is, and for some characters it's worth the investment into the prerequisite powers and some slotting.  Its duration reduction doesn't really seem to accomplish anything beneficial for the game, unlike most everything else adjusted in this bundle of changes.

 

If we assume that RoP effectiveness *must* be reduced in value, I would prefer to see some alternatives considered first (buffs to other pools, higher end cost, giving up that new when-mezzed effect buff, etc).  I'd say that -33% also feels on the extreme end... these top-tier pool powers are supposed to be somewhat desirable, right?

[Neogumbercules]

On 3/17/2021 at 6:38 PM, firelightx said:

I mentioned it elsewhere, but I'll mention it here, too.

 

Losing Invisibility is fine from a mechanics point of view (being rolled into Stealth makes a lot of sense, those powers were always weirdly redundant), but aesthetically I'm going to miss being actually invisible. Is there some way we can get Invis levels of transparency added to Stealth's tailor options?

 

Replying to highlight this suggestion. I'd love to have any power that grants invisibility/stealth to have various options that range from "Off" to what Invisibility is. 

 

Or if that's too much to implement, then some kind of character setting or toggle power that controls the transparency effect of any given stealth power, including the Celerity IO.