Why so many chaotic Controllers?

[krj12]

My memory of early game is a big different...  it was pretty rare when you had people dictating to others the "Correct" way to play their class.   And I usually quit those teams after the current mission completed.

 

Couple of examples:  

 

  We were on an ITF, and the leader kept complaining about the fire blaster using rain of fire and scattering the mobs.  I didn't see the issue, since we were doing just fine - but the jerk did eventually kick the guy from the TF.  That was uncalled for.

 

  I was on a radio team, and the ice defender kept complaining that I was using my root powers on my plant troller, which nullified his ice slick knockdown.  So, according to him, I had to negate using most of my powers so he could use that one power.

 

Bottom line, IMO let people play the way the want - as long as its not causing team wipes or anything like that.

 

 

[siolfir]

5 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

On a Dominator solo its often to your advantage to immobilize enemies apart from each other because that way you can melee them 1:1 and not worry about melee attacks from enemies close by.

 

Overall though I remember people always using the "cage" powers. In fact it used to be worse. A Fire or Plant troller would team up with me as an Ice Controller and then negate my Ice Slick with their immobilizes. Talk about feeling worthless.

 

FWIW I wouldn't complain one bit if the developers came in suddenly and said "Hey guys, now Judgement powers recharge x8 more slowly." I still don't know what the developers were thinking with that power. Other than maybe that the game was going free to play and they maybe assumed only 1 or 2 paid players per team would actually have the ability.

Or the Dominator could hold the mobs and still kill them safely. I never took the immobilizes on a Dominator - I didn't need to set up Containment, and I had better damage powers.

 

As far as Judgement: when they were introduced, you had to run specific iTrials to get the incarnate xp to unlock the slot, it was a grind to get any threads or salvage, most of the nukes still crashed, and yes, you didn't get Incarnate abilities unless you were subscribed. So every level 50 didn't have their choice of any of them. It's the same situation with set bonuses. Builds that used to be very rare are common, so the average person can get what used to be a multi-billion inf build. Converters and ATOs were cash market items, so most people didn't spend the money on them; now they're all over the place and people are recommending picking up full sets by level 7. Sure, there's some power creep going on as well, but it isn't like the possibility for this wasn't present on the live servers - it just was literally pay to win, then.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Or the Dominator could hold the mobs and still kill them safely. I never took the immobilizes on a Dominator - I didn't need to set up Containment, and I had better damage powers.

So when you Wormhole a group of mobs to a spot, you're fine with them just wondering aimless?

 

Also, it's a pain dropping an Ice Slick and the mobs on the edges eventually getting away...just too easy to toss a Frostbite on them.  Same with Earthquake.

 

I actually feel not immobilizing a group of mobs after you toss Seeds of Confusion on them wastes their shots.  If they aren't randomly running to their next target every other attack, they can just turn and shoot them when the attack recharges.

 

Not saying you need to use the AoE immobilize but it's more time efficient than trying to hold everything before you attack them.

[oedipus_tex]

Not to throw fuel on the fire, but today I was on a Task Force and only after we started, saw this:

 

 

We actually did fine, and I didn't say anything to the player. But it did make me LOL.

[Sovera]

15 hours ago, Erydanus said:

The tankers I've played with have all but 1 or 2 been utterly terrible. They play like brutes. They just run from mob to mob and take alphas and then run along. They don't hold aggro for more than 10 seconds. People in the support and damage backline are left mopping up crap like you wouldn't believe. Can you imagine an ITF at +4/x8 where the tanker is going up the hill to the giant robot area and they are THREE SPAWNS ahead of the majority of the team?

 

The no crash of nukes (which was a bad choice in my option because it really skewed the meta) means people are also used to just bombing constantly and playing in kind of an avalanche mode. Overall though, I think a lot of what's going on is people have to fend for themselves as best they can and if that means slapping an aoe immob on a rando group so I can put my own toggle debuff on it, I'll do it.

 

I don't love it but I have the option to solo if I want or put my own teams together. I may not like how the meta is right now but I like the game's back.

I do that all the time. I don't own a Tanker, but all my characters play like one in the sense they jump into a group first and unload AoEs and aim to kill the hardest target in there. But once the team catches up I never stay there moping up. You call it bad playing, I call it normal playing. Even on a +4x8 a full group annihilates spawns. A full team all competing to kill is an orgy of attacks trying to nail a mob before it dies and there are a lot of animations flying to hit a corpse.

 

I'm not trying to change your mind with this but if there are two or three anemic lieutenants and a half HP boss left and there are 5-6 team members dealing with them I don't see the need to stay, nor do I believe those few scattered mobs to be an actual threat to the team. I would rather be bouncing to the next group, unload AoEs, and when the team arrives the mobs are nice and clustered around me to be ravaged by their AoEs.

[siolfir]

7 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Not to throw fuel on the fire, but today I was on a Task Force and only after we started, saw this:

 

 

We actually did fine, and I didn't say anything to the player. But it did make me LOL.

Pretty sure I've seen that player in Ouroboros. Then again, I think the build I saw had Aid Other instead of Injection. Seems lacking in confidence to take Vengeance and Resurrect, though. 😛

 

3 hours ago, Sovera said:

I'm not trying to change your mind with this but if there are two or three anemic lieutenants and a half HP boss left and there are 5-6 team members dealing with them I don't see the need to stay, nor do I believe those few scattered mobs to be an actual threat to the team. I would rather be bouncing to the next group, unload AoEs, and when the team arrives the mobs are nice and clustered around me to be ravaged by their AoEs.

Yeah, pretty much this. If the team is having trouble playing mop-up I'll stick around once I notice it, but otherwise I consider it more helpful to gather the mobs in the next spawn once the bosses are dead.

[Frosticus]

8 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

I'm not trying to change your mind with this but if there are two or three anemic lieutenants and a half HP boss left and there are 5-6 team members dealing with them I don't see the need to stay, nor do I believe those few scattered mobs to be an actual threat to the team. I would rather be bouncing to the next group, unload AoEs, and when the team arrives the mobs are nice and clustered around me to be ravaged by their AoEs.

this is no issue.

more often though what we see is:

The scrapper that thinks he is solo'ing shoots ahead too

The stalker that opens with AS who was already camping the next spawn

The brute that has flatlined fury unless they soak the alpha is trying to stay ahead of the tank.

The blaster that needs to see their name constantly on the chat log shoots ahead.

 

And you are left with a couple under developed defender/troller/doms that were fighting on the backline whittling away at some +4 boss and then they arrive just in time to do it again on the next spawn. 

 

I've been that troller and it isnt a great experience. What I try to do now if the map supports it is I aggro mobs back to the team and create one big cluster**** of chaos. It makes everyone feel (more) useful and better utilizes long duration patches and the chat that ensues afterwards usually supports the idea that everyone is having fun. 

 

If too many people with nukes/judgement are present then such things cease to work. 

[VV]

On 12/31/2019 at 7:46 PM, Solarverse said:

So what gives? Why the change in play style over the years?

I was just saying over in the tankers forum about how the art of teaming has been lost. Partly because the game is so easy now, and partly because of the combination of red and blue side ATs. Nowadays it is mostly just smash and grab.

 

On the other hand, while you correctly mention that it does slow down kill-rate, even with that consideration, current kill-rate is still faster than during live thanks to all the power creep.

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, VV said:

I was just saying over in the tankers forum about how the art of teaming has been lost. Partly because the game is so easy now, and partly because of the combination of red and blue side ATs. Nowadays it is mostly just smash and grab.

 

On the other hand, while you correctly mention that it does slow down kill-rate, even with that consideration, current kill-rate is still faster than during live thanks to all the power creep.

I couldn't agree more.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I like it better now. I liked the redside AT design better than the blue. I like teaming now more than I ever did back before the snap.

 

Yea, the power creep is real. Yes, it's easy to get a T4ed and fully Purped and IOed character. With all the build help thrown around on the forums (something that was always the case) we don't even have to think too hard when slapping together our 50+ alts.

 

If you want more challenge, there's settings in game to allow for it when starting TF. Get a team that wants to run fully debuffed with no temps and buffed enemies. Go solo the ITF at max diff. Duo a MLTF.

 

Most of all, find like minded people. I've got some now in a way I never had on live. We giggle at team wipes when we're on lowbies. We rip through the hardest content without breaking a sweat with our best built characters. We don't have rules. We don't have tactics other than help those that need it if they want it.

 

If I wanted to play a holy trinity, rule based, "do it this way" MMO, there's plenty out there for it. But I don't. I play CoH and I do so because it's fun.

[Doomguide2005]

14 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Not to throw fuel on the fire, but today I was on a Task Force and only after we started, saw this:

 

 

We actually did fine, and I didn't say anything to the player. But it did make me LOL.

....  and while the above concept is "oh my" my own Emp/Fire probably wouldn't have gotten mezzed and died a gazillion times against lvl 54 Arachnos if the much more conventional other Emp on the team had bothered to use the CM I had to check info to find they did have.  They had and used the heals, Fort, AB, Auras, leadership toggles.  Guess I  needed to step up my staggering about to clue them in that's why "we got totally owned" when trying to mop up some stragglers

 

Best build in the game is still limited by its player and the worst will exceed expectations when run by a skilled player

Edited January 2, 2020 by Doomguide2005
🤪

[Solarverse]

7 hours ago, Frosticus said:

this is no issue.

more often though what we see is:

The scrapper that thinks he is solo'ing shoots ahead too

The stalker that opens with AS who was already camping the next spawn

The brute that has flatlined fury unless they soak the alpha is trying to stay ahead of the tank.

The blaster that needs to see their name constantly on the chat log shoots ahead.

 

And you are left with a couple under developed defender/troller/doms that were fighting on the backline whittling away at some +4 boss and then they arrive just in time to do it again on the next spawn. 

 

I've been that troller and it isnt a great experience. What I try to do now if the map supports it is I aggro mobs back to the team and create one big cluster**** of chaos. It makes everyone feel (more) useful and better utilizes long duration patches and the chat that ensues afterwards usually supports the idea that everyone is having fun. 

 

If too many people with nukes/judgement are present then such things cease to work. 

This is EXACTLY what ends up happening. My Trollers experience this constantly. The whole team runs ahead and I am stuck taking all day to kill that boss nobody else wanted to waste time with. I eventually say screw it and leave it, meanwhile, three floors up, the whole team is running around trying to find the enemies we left behind and I just shake my head.

[Erydanus]

On 1/2/2020 at 5:54 AM, Sovera said:

I'm not trying to change your mind with this but if there are two or three anemic lieutenants and a half HP boss left and there are 5-6 team members dealing with them I don't see the need to stay, nor do I believe those few scattered mobs to be an actual threat to the team. I would rather be bouncing to the next group, unload AoEs, and when the team arrives the mobs are nice and clustered around me to be ravaged by their AoEs.

No I'm talking about 20 pissed off Cimmerorans who are charging back down the long hill, focusing on the squishies while the tank is a couple spawns ahead and not pulling them along with him as he bullets through yet another spawn.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Erydanus said:

No I'm talking about 20 pissed off Cimmerorans who are charging back down the long hill, focusing on the squishies while the tank is a couple spawns ahead and not pulling them along with him as he bullets through yet another spawn.

Yea, that's a shitty tank. Our SG lead loves his corruptors. He often goes out to aggro spawns to bring them back to where the group is so that I and and the rest of the team can just spend our time gloriously slaughtering massive amounts of baddies. I love that hill on the 3rd mish of ITF. Sometimes I look up to realize that we're halfway up the hill and he's brought both AVs to us.

 

Good teams mean fun. Bad players should be avoided.

[roleki]

Herding is pretty much obsolete these days; it takes more time for the tank to run around the room and bring the mobs back to a central location than it does to just melt the mobs where they stand and move on to the next.  This is especially true at 50+ when every player has at least one nuke and many have multiples.  

 

Not saying one approach is better than another, but personally I prefer the way things are now.  I really disliked the drama that often cropped up when teams weren't bending to the Tank's playstyle.

 

So yeah, I might not lead with an AoE Immob, but I won't be standing around waiting for some Tank to get everything "just so" before melting stuff, either.

[siolfir]

4 hours ago, Erydanus said:

No I'm talking about 20 pissed off Cimmerorans who are charging back down the long hill, focusing on the squishies while the tank is a couple spawns ahead and not pulling them along with him as he bullets through yet another spawn.

Not explaining what they were expecting if they were going to run to the computer and not paying attention to the team window was the error here, not the actual running to the computer itself. Even if the plan is "rush through the generals" that can change if the team is having trouble since it doesn't sound like everyone was moving together as a group, but if people don't even know that it's the plan? Well, there's the problem. Communication isn't just an interview buzzword.

 

Just like the comment above about seeing that the Empath has Clear Mind but never uses it - you can usually remind people that they have powers other than their attacks, even if it's something as small as saying "zzzz" in team chat ("CM plz" works better, though). Do the good players need the reminder? Not usually, but everyone has off days.

[Nemu]

I think it maybe a symptom of all of us getting older but I get a lot of "I've been playing this game for xxx years so don't tell me how to play" when I merely suggest they adapt their playstyle when the team is struggling. Case and point CM, case and point asking the tank not to run off and help protect the squishies left behind to deal with +4 bosses.

 

Feedback is a gift you know, but old people suck at taking it....

[Doomguide2005]

And I am guilty of not asking in team or private chat for them to use that CM.  Truthfully until they made the comment in team chat late mission I wasn't  too bothered by it.  I was enjoying the team, they seemed to be having fun as was the team so I just kept an extra break free or two and went with the challenge of being up against 54's on my lvl 39 (sk'd to 49).  Even after the comment it was more of a "really?" moment than true annoyance.   

[Solarverse]

21 hours ago, roleki said:

Herding is pretty much obsolete these days; it takes more time for the tank to run around the room and bring the mobs back to a central location than it does to just melt the mobs where they stand and move on to the next.  This is especially true at 50+ when every player has at least one nuke and many have multiples.  

 

Not saying one approach is better than another, but personally I prefer the way things are now.  I really disliked the drama that often cropped up when teams weren't bending to the Tank's playstyle.

 

So yeah, I might not lead with an AoE Immob, but I won't be standing around waiting for some Tank to get everything "just so" before melting stuff, either.

I don't think anyone is talking about herding. When I play my Tank (and what I also see a lot of other Tanks attempting) I make an effort to run to the mob, and taunt another mob that is nearby, or run to the other nearby mob and then run to the primary mob. If the Controllers and Blasters and all the wannabe DPSers just give it 5 to 8 seconds, both mobs will be stacked on top of me and the team can unleash holy hell upon them. But instead, what we have is Controllers locking down mobs before the Tank can even stack the 1 or 2 mobs.

 

I'm not talking about herding, on this server herding is a complete waste of time since we have an aggro limit. To the best of my knowledge, the only server that would benefit from herding would be the We Have Cake server, because that is the only server that I am aware of who has done away with the aggro limit. No. What I am speaking of is a team using just a little bit of uniformed play for faster and more efficient kills.

 

If players can't be a tad bit patient and let the Tank do his/her job, then what ends up happening is the Tank losing aggro because the mobs are scattered all over the place and the Tank is left standing there trying to figure out how to best be beneficial to the team. So what the Tank ends up doing is pretending like he is a Brute, running to the chain of command within the mob and fighting like a Scrapper instead of a Tank.

 

People say Tanks are useless. I disagree, it is the players who make them useless by their chaotic playstyles.

[Force Redux]

On 1/2/2020 at 12:11 AM, oedipus_tex said:

Not to throw fuel on the fire, but today I was on a Task Force and only after we started, saw this:

 

 

We actually did fine, and I didn't say anything to the player. But it did make me LOL.

Yo, I heard you like heals with your heals...

[Purrfekshawn]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 11:11 AM, oedipus_tex said:

Not to throw fuel on the fire, but today I was on a Task Force and only after we started, saw this:

 

 

We actually did fine, and I didn't say anything to the player. But it did make me LOL.

 l think it's a PvP healer build n.n

Edited January 5, 2020 by Purrfekshawn

[Force Redux]

2 hours ago, Purrfekshawn said:

 l think it's a PvP healer build n.n

 

No super speed or acro tho?

[Razia]

On 1/1/2020 at 11:34 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Overall though I remember people always using the "cage" powers. In fact it used to be worse. A Fire or Plant troller would team up with me as an Ice Controller and then negate my Ice Slick with their immobilizes. Talk about feeling worthless.

 

Back on live I saw a lot of Ice Trollers doing that to themselfs too 🙂

[plainguy]

Several things I am guilty of.

 

1. No longer playing the game from 1 to 50 ( or 20 to 50 because of DFB )
   • I now PL my toons to 50, I started out with just doing odd Petless mastermind builds I wanted to play around with. But now its every toon. 
   • I have about 20+ level 50 toons all defense capped in one way shape or form and all fully IO'ed out. 
   • PL to 50 is about 20 Comic Con fire missions. I make about 100 million and a bit more between both toons.  I then transfer over other cash, Merits and converters to the new toon from my other level 50 toons I am playing.
2. The game is easy and if the highest setting is 4/8 and I am at a minimum soloing 3/8. Then 7 other players are just extra DPS to move it along faster. You do not need 8 players for anything any more. I did an ITF where several where NOT 50+ and some did not understand defense cap game mechanics.  I eventually told them after they complained of the difficulty level, Just don't attack first.. Let the players who are IOed out and defense capped attack first and follow along. Enjoy the ride, the XP and the loot.  I wasn't complaining that one or two kept dying.
3. Follow up on point #2, having 4 defense capped IOed players you could probably split into 2 teams and clear out ITF for example. 
4. I have zero issue if anyone wants to run ahead and clear out mobs, but I do have a problem or think is foolish when a player THINKS they can do it and then realize they can't and then do it repeatedly. 

 

To my demise I have bored/burnt myself out right now of playing and I am currently playing Fallout 4 on Horizon MOD for a challenge again.   

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by plainguy

[Bastille Boy]

One of the reasons I love this game is that it's friendly to casual players. People can play suboptimal builds and make tactical mistakes and still have a good time.

 

It's fun when a team steamrolls AVs because everyone knows how to play efficiently. But I can still enjoy a team that takes a long time to finish a task force, as long as everyone is being supportive of each other.

 

Advice is useful and often welcome, but tone is so important. The one thing that will make me stop enjoying a team is snippy comments in team chat (whether directed at me or at someone else).