Income Inequality In CoX

[fitzsimmons]

Female toons only earn 70% as much as male toons.

 

My female toons are outraged!

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, fitzsimmons said:

Female toons only earn 70% as much as male toons.

 

My female toons are outraged!

Have you tried doing the catgutl thing in Pocket D.  Thats where the real money is.  Er.  I mean. Thats what i hear

Edited February 17, 2020 by Snarky

[The_Warpact]

17 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Have you tried doing the catgutl thing in Pocket D.  Thats where the real money is.  Er.  I mean. Thats what i hear

Real money is the ERP catgurl room.

[Yomo Kimyata]

20 hours ago, Inheritor said:

In this post I'd like to shed light on the massive income difference between different types of players in CoX. In particular, I hope it puts into perspective why some people think IOs are something that only the elite have access to, and why some people treat IOs as a given for all their characters. I am categorizing the various economic classes by their highest inf-making activity. Of course, most people don't just do one thing all the time, so this just describes their ability to earn inf, not the actual inf that they do earn.

 

Radio Runners
Approximate Income: 0-1 million inf per hour
Radio missions give practically no rewards, yet for many people it is their primary activity due to the ease of joining and leaving a team. As a result, they cannot afford even the very basic of IOs unless they happen to win the drop lottery.

 

Casual Merit Earners
Approximate Income: 5-15 million inf per hour
These are people who just do normal, non-radio content, like story arcs, tip missions, or whatever task force happens to be recruiting at the time. They are not actively trying to get rich, but they are still pulling in several times the income of the radio runners because at least they aren't going out of their way to not make money. Although, some will waste merits by directly buying IOs with them rather than converters, in which case they are barely doing better than the radio runners.

 

Optimal Merit Earners
Approximate Income: 30-50 million inf per hour
These are people who do content which yields the highest merits per hour, such as Tinpex, Hamidon, Smoke and Mirrors, etc. Again, the gap in their income compared to the next lower class is a massive 5 to 10 times difference. Despite the relatively high income, they can still play fairly casually, because their way of earning inf doesn't take very much time and can be easily done with an RP character.

 

AE Farmers
Approximate Income: 100-200 million inf per hour
These people earnestly prioritize the optimal earning of inf over anything else. They work hard and are quickly rewarded with billion inf budgets with which to build their shiny TW/Bio scrappers and break the game. Considered by some to be an unfair outlier in how easily they earn inf, but even they are dwarfed by...

 

AH Overlords
Approximate Income: 500-??? million inf per hour
These are the people who use the very simple concept of buying low and selling high. They put in far less effort than AE farmers while making massively more inf. At this point inf becomes simply an abstract concept with no practical meaning.

 

Many people within a given class are unaware of the massive discrepancy between them and the class above them. This drastic income inequality, where some people can make literally a thousand times more inf than others, has a profoundly negative impact on balance discussions, particularly concerning the question "should balance ignore the existence of IOs?" Ideally, I'd like to see this income inequality reduced, perhaps by dramatically increasing the rewards earned from radios and weekly strike targets. Realistically, the top two classes will always earn too much and there's no simple or even desirable way of reigning them in.

Interesting analysis.

 

There is absolutely nothing to stop anyone from engaging in any or all of these activities.  There are threads in the Market forum that take you step by step through making inf.  Freely given, because this version of this game is made to be easy and to keep anyone from excluding others from making inf.

 

I'm going to refer to something that Troo said in a different post.  His/her concern was that people might feel pressured to make inf.  I will say, if you want inf, any amount, and you can't get it, let me know.  I'll send you to the right place to read guides, give you tips.  If you cannot figure out a way to make more inf than you can ever use, you just aren't trying.  "You're doing it wrong."  That is not meant to disparage anyone's play style.  Inf is so incredibly abundant, and we are all willing to share how to pick it up off the sidewalk.

 

[Haijinx]

54 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Have you tried doing the catgutl thing in Pocket D.  Thats where the real money is.  Er.  I mean. Thats what i hear

I regret I can click the haha only once to this post.

 

 

[DR_Mechano]

2 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

Real money is the ERP catgurl room.

You laugh but this actually happened in WoW. I know of, personally, at least 3 or 4 players who made bucketloads of Gold via this kind of thing...I mean I never saw the appeal judging by the fact they kept complaining about their 'clients' all the time.

[VileTerror]

*anxiously twiddles fingers while glances back and forth, sweat forming on Its brow*

[Snarky]

was listening to NPR today (I am a semi driver and was on a 100 down 100 mile back run)  There was a couple "exotic Dancers" talking about legal issues with their profession. Made some good points.  Of course what stood out was them talking about how difficult it is to "sparkle" for 8 hour shifts surrounded by power drinkers.  And really that's why I cant make money at it.  No sparkle.

[EmmySky]

3 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

...we are all willing to share how to pick it up off the sidewalk.

 

Granite tanks cant hop a curb much less bend over to pick up inf off the sidewalk.

 

DISCRIMINATION!!  😝

[arcane]

OP is clearly a communist.

[honoroit]

laissez faire - as is does. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by honoroit

[VileTerror]

If-only- they were a communist!  Probably would have had a slightly different thread progression.

[Sakai]

Everyone plays to their own style and their notion of fun. 

 

Some are fine running a fire mission in AE earning scads of influence from the sounds of it. Not my thing but that's ok. 

 

I'm definately a marketeer. A flipper in fact.  Buy low, list slightly higher and profit. I do craft a select number of items for sale but 100k in materials to give me 2 million is too good to pass up. 

 

I agree that I do not provide any actual product into the system but I am fine with that.  After much time actually crafting recipes it became quite obvious this was the simplest way to earn.

 

 Purples are rolling at 35 million right now. You really don't need to spend that much. I certainly don't. 

 

What do I use my illgotten gains for?  Well stupidly cool builds naturally but I give most of it away because why not. 

 

Are people making 500 million for an hour of work?  Probably.   I know I'm not. Haven't done the math but maybe 200ish for a hour spread over a few days. 

 

I don't convert. Discovered here, as well as Live, it was just to much clicking for me. I would rather be using my clicks for beating up the bad guys. 

 

There is no real inequality in the influence earned. Just need to find your style and go with it. If you choose a method with less earning potential that is your choice. 

[Grouchybeast]

7 hours ago, VileTerror said:

I've always been curious what might happen in a game where the Devs added two modes of trade:  One free market capital, and the other more akin to a direct barter system.  Naturally, the capital side of the equation would very likely have individuals who feed off of the barter system to further their capital, so some kind of barrier would need to be established between the two exchange systems.

Neopets, of all places, has a barter-based trading post.  Actually, it's a hybrid because a trade can involve a limited amount of currency, but inflation meant that the value of trades can exceed the allowed currency amount many times over.  Anyway, the answer is that people invented their own currency to use in barter -- in the case of Neopets, a couple of different high-value single-use items that could be bought in infinite amounts from a store.  Bartering requires an enormously tedious amount of research to make sure that the exchange you're making is actually fair and that someone isn't trying to rip you off by offering useless junk.   It's much faster and safer to ask for currency cap + four Baby Paint Brushes for your item than it is to sit there and figure out the value of an offer containing a dozen different books, four morphing potions, two food items, a weapon and a plushie.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[Oubliette_Red]

8 hours ago, VileTerror said:

This is probably going to get shouted down, based on the responses people are sharing here . . . but there is another element to the players who aren't "working the market."
They might find it morally repugnant.  

 

Culturally-speaking, that kind of market mechanic has it's appeal for some people, and certainly seems like a large percentage based on responses here.  But some people avoid the market, not because they "don't get it," but because they view it as a microcosmic exemplar for real-world systems which -are- inherently unfair.  Whether that response has roots in accuracy or not doesn't necessarily change how people -feel.-

 

I've always been curious what might happen in a game where the Devs added two modes of trade:  One free market capital, and the other more akin to a direct barter system.  Naturally, the capital side of the equation would very likely have individuals who feed off of the barter system to further their capital, so some kind of barrier would need to be established between the two exchange systems.

 

OH WELL!  We're too far down this particular rabbit hole to investigate the merit of that idea in City of Heroes now.

The thing is, is that you don't even have to "work the market". Sell your drops, make inf. No real marketeering involved.

 

You can already trade or barter 1:1, I know there's a Market thread in the forums that people post trades, there are likely channels out there for direct trading as well.

[VileTerror]

There is a pretty significant difference, though, between things immediately accessible and apparent in the game itself, and those things which rely upon outside connections.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, VileTerror said:

There is a pretty significant difference, though, between things immediately accessible and apparent in the game itself, and those things which rely upon outside connections.

That is true. However, if you ask about how to make inf, in the in game Help channel, it won't take long to get all the info you need. Or someone pointing you to a guide. Or telling you what to do in private messages.

 

Would be nice if there was some way to keep all of that info up to date in game.

 

I'm not sure HC has the manpower to do that if Paragon didn't.

[DR_Mechano]

7 hours ago, Snarky said:

was listening to NPR today (I am a semi driver and was on a 100 down 100 mile back run)  There was a couple "exotic Dancers" talking about legal issues with their profession. Made some good points.  Of course what stood out was them talking about how difficult it is to "sparkle" for 8 hour shifts surrounded by power drinkers.  And really that's why I cant make money at it.  No sparkle.

I mean working front end retail is also a pain in the arse because you're never allowed to just be a bit miserable, even on your worst day you've got to be all smiles and "how can I help you today?" and if you're not, you get customer complaints about 'being unhappy'. This was one of the reasons why I asked to be transferred to the loading and unloading section at the back of the warehouse, meant I wasn't dealing with customers which meant I didn't have to maintain this horrendous facade of being perky and happy ALL the time.

 

They were short staffed once and they picked the worst possible time to have me cover for a couple of hours because my Grandad had just passed away so I naturally wasn't feeling in a very happy mood. Had several customers complain about me not being 'happy enough' at which point I told the manager that technically, having just had the news earlier that morning about my Grandad passing, that as far as I was concerned those customers could just shove it and that I shouldn't even be there as I could take 3 days bereavement and that I was going to be taking them as of tomorrow. 

 

The retail and service industry has this whole 'be happy OR ELSE' mentality around it even here in the UK where it's not quite as bad as America so I actually totally get that 'having to sparkle' for 8 hours thing because it's not just Exotic Dancers that suffer from that.

[nihilii]

13 hours ago, VileTerror said:

 Whether that response has roots in accuracy or not doesn't necessarily change how people -feel.-

While true, it's also worth noting that response has no accuracy whatsoever given the radical differences between RL economy and CoH economy. The comparison isn't between tomatoes and potatoes, but between tomatoes and steam-powered rocket ships from an alternate reality. Unfortunately the AR scientists call their rocket ships "potato", and so dimensional travelers with a hate for the vegetable are appaled at their space program.

 

It's possible to find a way to get offended by anything if one tries hard enough, but the same level of effort could probably make that same person a billionaire. Even by listing drops for 1 inf on the AH, mind you.

 

Heck, we've all started from scratch and in the first week there was *no* market to speak of. I built my main in possibly the most inefficient way, burning empyrean merits into reward merits to buy purples, PVP IOs and LotGs 1 recipe at a time, 100 merits a pop. MSR raids? Let's just say I'm a potato hater, because I missed that boat, hard. AE farms? It took me an argument on the forums months later to realise meteor farms were a thing worth doing.

 

Incidentally, the HC economy is much closer to a communist utopia than a free market system. We've got hard price caps on close to every object: reward merits can be used to buy most things, and reward merits have a fixed inf cost. The workers literally own the means of production, as you get drops out of thin air by fighting infinitely generated mobs or completing similarly infinite tasks. Capital can be accumulated, but can never compound - and more importantly, because we're playing a video game there is no power/governance advantage you can get to by accumulating massive amounts of capital.

 

There is even a strong case to make for the "State" itself (HC staff) as a representation of the ideal communist party:

- truly benevolent towards its people

- no cult of personality (ok, maybe a little cult of personality. We all love Jimmy)

- applies interventionism in carefully targeted scenarios to redirect labor towards a wider breadth of the industry

- leaves leeway for some level of personal motivation in earning rewards and ergo working

Last but not least, look at the favicon on top of that forum tab. Red and proud! 🥳

[Lines]

All in favour of a red-and-gold forum theme revamp, say aye.

[Neiska]

Personally, I go the "play your way" philosophy. If others want to do X activity, then that's fine! It doesn't affect my enjoyment one way or another. As far as infamy/money goes, I would like to point out the other affects of activities that the Op might have overlooked -

 

1. Radio/random missions - sure, its low inf. But you get to meet random people, and maybe make a friend. And you are more "involved" with interacting with the world, as in traveling and so on. And some people like that.

 

2. The market flippers/AH folks - I imagine it comes down to personality here. Some people like the thrill of a deal, or coming out ahead, seeing how various market strategies and investments interact with one another. Not my thing personally, but I can understand why some might like that aspect of the game. For me it would be too tedious, boring. I hate throwing up all my low end salvage when it gets full personally. Its just too little gain for so many clicks.

 

3. Merit farmers - I have never done this myself, but some people like the story and adventures. As for me I couldn't play the same story arcs or missions over and over. Once you've done something 4, 5, or 6 times it starts to loose its charm. But again, some people like that and testing different builds on different stories, and thats okay too!

 

4. AE farming - This is my preferred way to get money. Its consistent, its easy, you make friends, help guild mates, and get to meet people. So for me personally, its all around win-win. Some people don't like AE farming, and that's also okay! 

 

Anyway, my case here is that each activity I see as a sort of investment in time and enjoyment. Person A, B, and C may enjoy activites 1, 2, and 3. And each different type of activity has its own reward, even if its just social. I mean, I have made a ton of infamy from just roleplaying - 200 million from winning a drinking game, or another 500m for a costume contest, or other roleplay interactions. I go to enough rp events that personally I could consider that also a form of farming money, as one of my 50's I fully equipped only in this manner. She got to 50 with the exp buff, and I never stepped foot inside an AE again with her. Shes fully geared out now, solely from the money shes made from rp interactions. 

 

So if money is your primary focus/drive in the game, then you might have to perform an activity that you don't really enjoy, because thems the breaks. For me, once a game becomes a chore, its no longer fun. I usually focus on fun/enjoyment more than money/exp/etc, because the other stuff will come in time, and if I am not enjoying the game then whats the point of playing?

 

TLDR: Maybe people should stop worrying about what/how other people play, and what "they" might be getting for their time, because in my humble laymen opinion, to be blunt, its really not their business. Its not my business what the top AH flipper makes, or how they do it or if the enjoy it. I stay in my own lane and focus on my own friends, fun, and enjoyment. 

 

Just my two cents. 

[Sovera]

I'm a merit farmer myself. Though farming is too strong a word for it. I just make alts, new alts, all the time, and then level them through TFs. Each ends earning about 100ish millions worth in merits. And this accumulates. I rarely stick at 50 for long since that's me loitering around PD doing nothing. I don't need XP and don't need money, so I have no reason to go out and do content. I could go out to do content with friends but they don't do content either (outside farming radio missions and AE farming, neither of which interests me).

 

So I reach level 50, slot up, look proud, sit there for a few days, and make a new alt.

 

Another thing that makes money accumulate is that I don't leave my money scattered on those alts. The expensive IOs, the inf, everything is /respecced and tossed back into the bin for my next alt. I only stopped this when I reached 1b in cold cash and have left some of my favorite characters (Ice/Bio Stalker, Claws/Bio Scrapper, Fire/Fire Tanker) fully slotted to the gills in case I ever feel like playing them again. This still has me with 400 mill floating around.

 

As some pointed there is no real point in earning a LOT of inf. We only need as much inf as we require to slot our characters. When I see people talking of farming for hours to earn inf and i think back to the thread about the guy in the Market sub-section talking how he was trying to make 1b in 24 hours starting with absolutely zero inf it makes me smirk.

 

He lost the attempt btw, he 'only' made 830 mill starting from zero inf. But a few hours after the 24 hour mark the rest of the stuff in the AH sold and he reached his goal.

[KC4800]

I've never in the life of this game needed to accumulate a billion influence. That said, there are some who do.

 

I don't begrudge them at all. 

 

I have an AE farmer. He's not a fire farmer. He's a tank. I make about 10 million in about a 1/2 hr. Not a record, I know.

 

Its enough for me to do whatever I want to. 

 

I join teams, be they radio, TF, RWZ, etc. for the interaction. Never for the inf. (Sometimes for the XP though)

[THEDarkTyger]

On 2/16/2020 at 8:36 PM, golstat2003 said:

You're missing a category that is almost no effort if you know what to do. To be blunt, you need to go to the market forums and read some guides.

....sounds like that'd be what the last category described.

[golstat2003]

42 minutes ago, THEDarkTyger said:

....sounds like that'd be what the last category described.

The last category (unless I missed a post) is this:

 

AH Overlords
Approximate Income: 500-??? million inf per hour
These are the people who use the very simple concept of buying low and selling high. They put in far less effort than AE farmers while making massively more inf. At this point inf becomes simply an abstract concept with no practical meaning.

 

-----------

I was referring actually to folks like me. Who don't do ANY of the above as the primary source of inf. What I do is the Enhancement conversion method of crafting some low level set IOs (or outright buying the low level enhancement), convert it until it's a rare then sell it. (usually just for 1 inf to get whatever I want as fast as I want, or slightly less than what the lowest last bid was). Where do I get the converters from? Not from the market, by simply doing the content: hami raids (both heroic and villian side), tfs/sfs, rwz raids, conversion from emp merits, etc. I also in set convert when I get something that's rare in a set, into something that's more rare. Ex: Get a regular defense set IO, convert until I get a rare LOTG defense, then in set convert that into the LOTG Defense/Recharge one that everyone slots into multiple defense-taking powers.

 

I've literally been able to max IO several builds over months doing the above.

 

I didn't see that category listed, unless I misunderstood one of the original options.

 

I learned the above by reading guides in the market section of the forums.

 

My point is: If you take the time to read some of the guides (few minutes read) you can pretty much learn how to make enough inf to EASILY move yourself into any of the categories the OP posted, including making enough inf to CREATE a farming character or two. (Which I was also able to do using the info on the forums, which I was directed to by talking to folks in the Help channel in game). Making inf is not hard, there is no inf inequality when literally ANYONE can do what I just described. As others have pointed out if you choose to not take the time to use the info folks have gathered -- some from years ago when the game was live -- that's our choice. The game runs fine on SOs.

 

But bottom line is, it's a choice.

Edited February 18, 2020 by golstat2003