Weekly Discussion 60: Ninjitsu

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 60 - Week 7/19/20-7/25/20:

 

⚔️YOU VOTED: Let's talk about Ninjitsu!⚔️ 

 

❓Things to think about:

>Here is a link on Ninjitsu: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Ninjitsu

>How does it compare to other armor sets?

>What things would you change?

>What do you love?

 

Let's Chat 😄

[drbuzzard]

Not a bad set by any means. A bit short on DDR, but positional defense so fairly easy to softcap, and throws in healing and endurance tools, so that's nice. Funny how the original place for it (stalkers) is the worst version. Have a sentinel and scrapper at 50 that use the set, and it works pretty well. I'm still not a big fan of click status protection, but some people like it, so it's just a YMMV thing there.

[ImpousVileTerror]

I like how Ninjitsu does different things than most Survival Sets.   I like the mixed bag.   It's one of my absolute favourite Sets in general!

More new Sets like Ninjitsu, which break the mould of their archetypical formatting.

 

 

Oh, but could we please fix the bug in the Tier 3 Power?   It's supposed to unlock at Level 4, but doesn't unlock until Level 6 for some reason.

Or is that intentional?   It's very perplexing why the Set would do that intentionally.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by ImpousVileTerror
Added bug report.

[Six-Six]

Is there a way to fix how taking Ninjitsu power ends up with you making a ninja-like toon? 

I love the Ninjitsu secondary on Sentinels (which I assume are the same or similar on a Scrapper/Stalker). I do wish the shuriken throwing of Martial Assault Dominators be available to other ATs.

[ShardWarrior]

Absolutely love Ninjitsu!  I have 4 scrappers and 1 stalker using it and no complaints at all.  Love the flexibility the set provides.

[Fan Mail]

I think the set is solid. 

[Herotu]

7 hours ago, Six Six said:

Is there a way to fix how taking Ninjitsu power ends up with you making a ninja-like toon? 

I love the Ninjitsu secondary on Sentinels (which I assume are the same or similar on a Scrapper/Stalker). I do wish the shuriken throwing of Martial Assault Dominators be available to other ATs.

This would be a job for "power customisation", wouldn't it?

[Nemu]

If the scrapper/sentinel version ever got ported to tanks it would be a really good hami tank.

 

The stalker version may need some fine tuning, seems to me there are a few dud powers that while flavorful, are not used much. Given how the stalker ATO has really changed the game perhaps replace smoke bomb, as flavorful as it is, with the end regain power.

 

I'd like to see all melee defense sets get at least 50% DDR outside of the T9 given how prevalent -def is. I don't feel that ninjitsu has enough layered mitigation to justify it's low DDR.

 

The blaster version is poo, the damage for the melee attacks need to be adjusted up to be competitive with blaster melee powers from other sets. I'd love to have shinobi offer a few modes in addition to the +stealth and +movement buffs:

Poison Blade- additional minor toxic damage added to all sword attacks - this should make Ninja Training melee attacks do the most damage among all blaster secondaries in their respective tiers.

Shadow Assassin - original mode of occasional build up and the persistent small passive to hit and damage buffs.

A third mode that complements ranged play - perhaps increased perception, increased range, and large passive to hit bonus.

I can't decide on blaster smoke flash. It's very flavorful and very unique mitigation but the current state of the game makes it a skip because there aren't too many situations where I as a blaster would placate everyone and then not attack. I want to play blasters, not tactical retreat specialists.

 

[Greycat]

11 hours ago, Six Six said:

 I do wish the shuriken throwing of Martial Assault Dominators be available to other ATs.

I believe it's in an ancillary power pool for... blasters? At least one other AT.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Nemu said:

If the scrapper/sentinel version ever got ported to tanks it would be a really good hami tank.

I don’t give a damn how if functions, I would just love to see it and Energy Melee make it across the Rubicon to Tankers.

[Troo]

As a stalker, I really only have two comments regarding Ninjitsu..

 

#1 Caltrops?

#2 We see many comments for alternate animations: Could we get alternate names?! Seriously sometimes you just wanna heal and that isn't Kuji-In Retsu or Kuji-In Rin..

 

Fix Energy Transfer!

Troo Power Scale ©℗®™

[ under-powered | okay at the moment | overpowered ]

p l e a s e  n o  m o r e  r e g e n  n e r f s

Edited July 22, 2020 by Troo

[MTeague]

I think Ninjistu is Pretty Dang Good.  

• But your defenseive toggles cover all three posistions as early as Level FOUR. SR has to wait a long long time for any AoE defense.
• Caltrops.  Glorious, Wonderous, Stop-Attacking-Me-And-Give-Me-Free-Hits Caltrops.  Which also makes a wonderful area denial to save a teammate from melees, too. 
• Kuji-in-Sha gives you a baked-in heal self without having to take three powers in the Medicine Pool, and it's not interruptable.  And it comes with +RES vs Toxic
• Kuji-in-RIn (your clicky status protection) includes Confuse and Fear, which Practiced Brawler does NOT.  Oh, and it comes with some +RES vs Psionics.... 
• The powers with +RES, I'm pretty sure let you slot the 3% defense uniques without needing to take Boxing/Tough.  You might still take fighting anyway, but it's not like /SR where you HAVE to use pool powers to slot them 3% def uniques.
• Blinding Powder lets you whittle down part of a mob without having to tank it all at once, whereas /SR just better dodge everything or get walloped.

Now, admittedly, it doesn't have quite as much DDR as Super Reflexes.

It doens't have the baked in scaling damage resist that Super Reflexes gets.  But I don't feel /Nin is hurting or otherwise in a bad place. 

[cranebump]

One of my favorite melee secondaries. Allows for a wide range of capabilities, including a nice movement buff that works perfectly with Ninja Run/sprint. I wouldn’t change it at all.

[ForeverLaxx]

Scrappers/Sentinels: I don't think anything is inherently wrong here though I always skip Blinding Powder. Cone -perception powers aren't reliable enough for me due to how spawns can wander and I can just toss in a Celerity Stealth to Sprint if I want to be fully invisible to skip foes.

 

Stalkers: The same issues with Blinding Powder as above, with the added skipped power of Smoke Flash. It's a cool theme power, so it probably won't be changed/removed, but with how Stalkers function in the modern game this sort of power has very limited use beyond RP. Caltrops is sort of in this same boat, but I have a soft spot for this power even before you could slot it with a ton of procs. It's just a good "get away from me/my ally" power.

 

When comparing the two sets, it's strange to me that Scrappers/Sentinels were given Knockback/Knockup protection on an auto power, replacing Smoke Flash. I mean, I know why they don't have Smoke Flash, but why were they given a power to fix the intentional mez hole that Stalkers have had since the set existed on CoV Beta? Ninjitsu was supposed to be SR but with utility, so they paid for that utility by having a mez hole and less DDR than SR. Scrappers/Sentinels don't suffer in this same regard and I find it odd, personally. If anything, Caltrops feels more at home on the Scrapper/Sentinel than it does on the Stalker, and they don't have it.

 

Beyond that, I think the set could probably have its DDR raised a bit. I don't feel like the heal provided in the set really offsets the lower DDR completely, especially since Nin doesn't get scaling resists like SR does (though admittedly, only Tanks really seem able to leverage that aspect of SR, which probably needs to be looked at too).

[Yomo Kimyata]

I am incredibly suspicious of this thread!  Where are the calls for a toxic damage aura, or a bio armor type toggle?!?

 

I guess it's working as intended!

[Patti]

Is there a character type who can be stone fists and ninja?

[Sakura Tenshi]

i would actually dare to say scrapper and sentinel ninjitsu feels stronger than stalker. The built in KB protection adds so much and I have noticed lately a lot of enemies you wouldn’t think have knockdown powers actually so (equinox parasites seem to have it in their basic smite which players do not have and death head soldiers have it in their version of burst, nevermind the number of things that definitely have KB and KD) and Shinseiteki Kyoyo giving an infusion of endurance is pretty damn helpful before one starts slotting sets and if an end boost on stalker version we’re added could help with the fact that assassin’s strike powers, though meant to now be seen as an opener and part of the chain, take up quite a chunk of endurance per-activation. Stalker ninjitsu’s big plus is caltrops which work pretty well as an active mitigation tool even without profs. 

 

otherwise, as others have noted ninjitsu is a strong set on any AT and on scrappers and sentinels is one of the few sets with total mez protection (shield and willpower being the only other two) and benefits from a number of useful tools for many situations with it’s great weakness being a painful albeit ultimately fair one of suffering from cascading defense failure. Said weakness is only trut frustrating when dealing with foes like tarantula mistresses who possess an incredibly powerful defense debuff (mental scramble) which is not only ranged but is an autohit, giving no opportunity to mitigate it. (That and mental scramble also is a massive tohit debuff and -perception that crippled a lot of other power sets) noteably examples of similar powers like mask of weakness and vitiation do have tohit checks.

 

Wow, that turned into a longish rant on one particular power of a specific enemy.

[Heraclea]

The problem with the set is, why would anyone who can play Super Reflexes when there's this?  More of a problem for Super Reflexes.  I have played it on a stalker  on HC, which was my first 50 stalker.   That character is La Faiseuse d' Anges; unlike some  players I am not a fan of all things Japanese. 

 

Biggest aesthetic annoyance is the power names, which makes it hard to talk about because I can never remember which does what.  Scrapper version is an old style T9 and as such very skippable.

[oldskool]

First thing I'd change is the Romanized spelling to Ninjutsu.  

I think the set compares fairly well for Stalkers since it gains additional tricks like caltrops, smoke bomb, and blinding powder at the expensive of raw mitigation tools.  This gives the set a level of distinction from Super Reflexes and also fits the feel/flavor of playing certain Stalker builds.  The inclusion of a personal heal is also a very nice boon for Stalkers vs Super Reflexes at times.

Ninjutsu's port in Sentinels/Scrappers has certain strengths but the lack of the original tools can make it feel like a watered down version of Super Reflexes.  The inclusion of new powers like Shinobi-Iri, Seishin Teki Kyoyo (seishinteki is oddly joined as one word maybe because it can't be hyphenated?), and Bo Ryaku are great but also remove so much of the flavor of the set.  This is both unfortunate and understandable.  The missing power caltrops already exist in Weapon Mastery for Scrappers.  Sentinels can pick up both Smoke Bomb and Caltrops in Ninja Tool Mastery.  

 

While I do like the changes of the Scrapper/Sentinel versions, I would have liked Bo Ryaku to exist a bit earlier.  This is really a very minor complaint.  The KB protection there is welcome far earlier than level 28, but this is easily overcome with IOs.  Still, I'd rather not be so reliant on the IO's to provide a slight bit of protection like this and Shinobi-Iri could easily swap space there.  I do love Shinobi-Iri, but I could also live with it coming later.  Speaking of Shinobi-Iri... The damage bonus for first strikes is cute, but also feels like a bit of a missed opportunity.  I would love for there be other ways for Scrappers/Sentinels to use this bonus beyond a first strike.  As it is, it is a really weak effect and more of a bone tossed out as a nod to the background concept.  Its a nice touch, but feels like it should be used a bit more without completely stomping on shtick of Stalkers.  
 

Kuji-In Retsu... This is really just an Elude knockoff which was always a missed opportunity even for the basic vanilla Stalker version.  This mantra, "Retsu", is the mastery of space and time.  In an SO world, this power making you untouchable seems like it fits that concept.  In practical play, it never lived up to the name sake.  

For Scrappers/Sentinels this could have been something new to interact with Shinobi-Iri and be functionally different from Smoke Bomb (which Scrappers don't even have and is nearly useless for Sentinels).  It could have been more like an offensive buff.  For this we could have had Kuji-In Pyo which is the expression of utilizing one's energy.  Kuji-In Rin is/was generally a pre-battle meditation focusing the fire element (certain ninjutsu is real big on elemental harmonies with chakra) and Pyo is the following mantra to use this energy.  I know that's real nitpicky, but Kuji-In Retsu is far too abstract to do it any level of justice with how this game works.  A Stalker could also have a version of Pyo, but it would likely have to express itself differently.  An stealth mechanic is already there for Placate so that's kind of out, but some kind of offensive buff wouldn't have been out of line with the original version.  OR the Stalker version could keep Retsu as the defensive tool since Shinobi-Iri adds a bit more defense to the Scrapper/Sentinel version IIRC.  

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts.  I genuinely like the set as it is, but it has a few points of copy-paste from Super Reflexes that could have been changed for more identity. 

[nihilii]

21 hours ago, Heraclea said:

The problem with the set is, why would anyone who can play Super Reflexes when there's this?  More of a problem for Super Reflexes. 

DDR and scaling res and Quickness make a sizeable different in SR performance. Admittedly subtle traits at slight glances. I like the way the Sentinel version of both powersets turn out. Sentinel /nin gets to enjoy the stronger Scrapper port with all its neat changes. Sentinel /SR gets an +absorb click and passive mez protection. The two sets end up playing fairly differently and fitting different niches, despite being positional defense-based sets.

Edited July 22, 2020 by nihilii

[Crater Kate]

Meanwhile there's me, an absolute DDR and recharge addict, wondering why anyone would play Ninjutsu when they could instead play SR 😄

 

The reality is the set is ok-ish on Stalkers, but very decent on Scrappers and Sents. I've played as and with a handful of /Nin Scrappers, and I like how the set makes you half a Stalker, giving you leeway to blend styles a little bit. You get to take the good Scrapper versions of some sets like Claws, and play them on a Stalker-like character without actually using the bad Stalker versions. That flexibility and freedom is really cool to me.

 

I also like its unique construction and how its survivability tracks to various powers!
 

I think the Stalker version could do with a once over to get it polished up to the point of the Scrapper/Sent versions.

 

Other than that, the set's in a good spot!

 

(but can you pretty pretty pretty please give us caltrops on Scrapper/Sent? I pwomise I won't abuse them that much! 🥺 )

Edited July 23, 2020 by Crater Kate

[Chance Jackson]

Can we get Ninjutsu proliferated to Brutes?

[Eldyem]

Nin on Stalkers feels like a "what could have been" where Stalkers have way more utility / way less defense than a normal armor set. In an ideal world I'd wish that all Stalker sets were built around this concept to add an extra layer of archetype diversity, but that's not where we are, unfortunately. I'm even a big fan of the "bad" filler powers because it feels so unique.

[Zepp]

There are two issues with the Stalker version, the lack of Bo Ryaku, which adds a level of defensive layering into the set, and Shinobi-Iri, which is a weak version of Hide+mobility. This makes the Stalker version a lot less mobile, which makes it feel less enjoyable.

The other issue is that it is not available for Brutes or Tanks, it would be nice if it could get ported to them as well.

[Sakura Tenshi]

On 7/23/2020 at 10:08 AM, Chance Jackson said:

Can we get Ninjutsu proliferated to Brutes?

I think the biggest issue of proliferating ninjutsu to brutes is just the 'stealth strike' mechanic. With a zero'd out end bar, Brutes have the worst melee attack modifier in the game period (least if I recall), so a lot of their damage is from their fury bar which is meant to build up in a fight. So the only way a stealth strike mechanic could work well for them would be something along the lines of giving them either a truly ridiculous damage bonus to make it worth it, or making it so the 'from hidden' thing actually forces brute fury to maximum which would probably be horribly broken.