Expectations

[Troo]

It is apparent that continued power creep at higher levels closes the gap between archetypes and their associated roles. This is likely as intended and not a big deal in high level content.

Maybe expectations are the issue.

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo?

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

 

Understanding the intention can help set expectations.

 

Having an understanding of the direction the development team is going and plans moving forward even at a high level can keep the community informed.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Troo

[Snarky]

I ran a Super Strength Invulnerability Brute for almost a year live on just Single Origin enhancers.  I was learning the game and enjoying what I did.  The power sets on a Brute are very functional on a Brute, even when sidekicked and at -mult levels Rage allows you to just keep doing your job.  Once i could afford enhancers I could really only have one "great" build at a time.  And we all love to alt.  I ran a LOT on SOs.  The game plays well versus SOs.  

 

Now I run very expensive builds against really difficult content.  But the game has morphed for that content.  Even at non incarnate you have incarnate powers, and more often than not some teammates are being "farmed" so you are pulling extra weight.  Bigger challenges, more power, and requiring a better understanding of how to optimize to handle it.  Different game.  In the same game.

 

Then there is me trying to figure out how to run anything besides a Brute.  Sometimes extra power helps there.  Sometimes maybe it doesnt.  I learned a lot on that old SO Brute.  Cheers Blue Centurion of Liberty Server.  What a ride.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Does it matter? If a dev responds, they'll rightly do so in a way that is ambiguous as possible and if any of the rest of us answer it won't matter because we have zero input into potential changes.

[Greycat]

8 minutes ago, Troo said:

Should all archetypes be able to solo?

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

 

 

1. Should all archetypes be able to solo?

Yes. And all of them can. More to the point, all *powersets* can. This does not mean "take down an AV in 2.6 seconds." At base levels, with no fancy builds (but realistic - not "pure healer," one attack and brawl,)  atll ATs and powersets can solo content not designed for teams/leagues (and even some that is, such as posi 1.)

 

2. Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

No. That's unrealistic to expect. (And again, we have to go to *powersets,* not archetypes. There are definitely, for instance, controller builds that can solo perfectly happily at +4/8, but I highly doubt you'll find one for my Earth/FF, for instance, no matter how many purples and the like you put in, that wouldn't be an exercise in annoyance.)

 

3. Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

Honestly... not 100% sure what you're going at here. After 50, we're hitting a degree of homogenization thanks to some of the Incarnate powers - every AT will have a nuke, pets, etc. I don't expect (again, going to my earth/ff example) every AT and every powerset to suddenly jump up to the +4/8 level casually. I expect some things to be harder. I don't think we *had* content over 50 long enough to *really* set (and balance) expectations.

 

4. Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

No. They should be just what they are - 100% optional. Content and expectations should not be geared around them.

 

5. Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

I'll give this a "maybe," as they're *also* most likely running incarnate abilities which have an impact of their own. So what has what impact? That said, I would *expect* someone who's dumped the INF and tweaked a build on a character to regularly solo at those levels to have more of an impact. We can't make content harder just for them, necessarily.

[Yomo Kimyata]

My opinions and expectations:

 

1.  Yes, and they all can.

2.  Yes, and they all can.  It depends on your personal tolerance for annoyance or speed or OMG ZERG.  Not all can solo all or some AVs; not all can solo GMs; none can solo Hamidon buglessly.

3.  I personally don't see a big difference between lvl 49 content and lvl 50 content, but the only difference for me is whether or not IOs are catalyzed, or if I have purples installed, or if I'm incarnated.

4.  I think they make a huge difference, but I'm not going to use the word "should".

5.  Yes with respect to teams.  Maybe with respect to other players since indirectly they are affecting the player-run economy if they are able (for example) farm three times more efficiently.  Dunno about intention.

 

[Normal Thomas]

Should all archetypes be able to solo?

Absolutely. I solo'd this game a lot on Live and I think that's one of its greatest strengths is that it is very solo friendly. Now the level that people can solo at that's a whole other question.

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

I'd say overall that fighting at +4/x8 shouldn't be without difficulty, no matter the archetype, builds, IOs etc. The limit of difficult should feel like the limit unless a higher limit can be established.

 

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

Starting at lvl 35 the game starts to get super charged with T9 powers and epic/patron pools. This is part of the natural game progression where that group of 3 minions isn't anywhere near as hard as it was at lvl 1. Obviously, once you get Incarnates and  Purple IO sets that power equation is going to change again.

 

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

Generics? usually starting at lvl 22. Nothing but sets? Not until 50 I'd think unless you got money from your alts or someone generous. Most normal content should be soloable at +0/0 with an SO build at lvl 22+

 

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

Absolutely. However, it takes awhile in terms of getting IOs and Incarnate powers and that really is a reward of those systems. I think being stronger than other players is intended but absolutely eclipsing other players (at the same or similar level) I don't think was planned by the original developers or Homecoming team. How to deal with that or if to deal with that is beyond me, sorry!

[DougGraves]

All ATs should  be able to solo.  Some will solo better than others.

 

No ATs should be able to solo +4/x8. 

 

There should be a change above level 50.  Incarnate powers and IO sets should not work below level 50. 

 

Players should never use IOs.  Players who want to use IOs should have their own server.

 

Characters who can solo +4/x8 ruin the game for others and they should not exist or be on their own server.

 

 

[Seed22]

3 hours ago, DougGraves said:

All ATs should  be able to solo.  Some will solo better than others.

 

No ATs should be able to solo +4/x8. 

 

There should be a change above level 50.  Incarnate powers and IO sets should not work below level 50. 

 

Players should never use IOs.  Players who want to use IOs should have their own server.

 

Characters who can solo +4/x8 ruin the game for others and they should not exist or be on their own server.

 

 

Couple points that I disagree with: IOs. I tend to see this response as uh..bit too strong yknow? Youd have an easier time having your own server with no IOs. How does that last one make sense. Like sell it to me, if they’re soloing, legit what does that have to do with you? 

[KauaiJim]

7 hours ago, DougGraves said:

All ATs should  be able to solo.  Some will solo better than others.

 

No ATs should be able to solo +4/x8. 

 

There should be a change above level 50.  Incarnate powers and IO sets should not work below level 50. 

 

Players should never use IOs.  Players who want to use IOs should have their own server.

 

Characters who can solo +4/x8 ruin the game for others and they should not exist or be on their own server.

 

 

Agree.

 

Disagree for Homecoming.  I would agree if this were a newer or live game.  This is neither.  This is a miraculously resurrected blessing that is crazy fun.

 

Disagree for Homecoming.  See above.

 

Strongly disagree.  Did someone in your family get killed by an IO or something?  Why the IO hatred?  (this is an attempt to be funny, albeit a poor one)

 

Very strongly disagree with this OPINION.  You know what really ruins the game?  When it's shut down and not available to play ever again. 

 

I'm so grateful for Homecoming even especially in it's current state and everything we can do.  In both this and your prior statement you sound almost angry and I'm not calling you out for it at all, and apologize if it comes across that way.  Rather I'm trying to understand why?  This is not a new MMO.  This is not an official MMO.  This leads me to think that Troo hit the bullseye with:

 

11 hours ago, Troo said:

It is apparent that continued power creep at higher levels closes the gap between archetypes and their associated roles. This is likely as intended and not a big deal in high level content.

Maybe expectations are the issue.

 

 

... and maybe I'm the outlier here but I came back to CoX via the Homecoming miracle with NO expectations.  Certainly not the usual 'everything must be fine-tuned and balanced' that I would have in a newer live MMO.  What I found was more bleeping fun than I ever could have imagined having in CoX!  Now if these folks who gave us what we currently have want to nuke all of the extra enjoyment they have already brought us into oblivion they can, but that's not the vibe I get here from the Homecoming team and I love it and hope I'm reading them right.  However...

 

Maybe some of you came here expecting the Homecoming team to pick up where the Live team left off and just go around tightening things down, tuning (which tends to become over tuning), balancing (which tends to become homogenizing) and adding more build options and end game content?  There's nothing wrong with that.  It's just not how I feel about this particular MMO in the one in a million second chance situation we currently have been blessed with.  And that's just my opinion not an indictment of anyone else's opinion.

 

I think expectations would be a very good place to start.  I have no idea which expectations others came here with, or maybe didn't come here with but have developed over weeks/months.  But I think it would be a smart idea to check with the folks who bring all of this to us in their spare time to maybe better know where THEY want to go or even how much time/effort they want to or even can put into all of our 'expectation'.

 

I see no harm in these threads and discussions and in fact they can be very good but I want to be sure we aren't getting a little carried away here with all of this MMO philosophical debate popping up lately.  I personally hope we aren't going to start making the Homecoming folks regret bringing all of this to us.  The best possible outcome here before too many of these threads start running off in every direction and folks start hollering strong opinions would probably be to know how the Homecoming folks feel about these 'big-can-o-worms' requests and if they would even want to or would have the time to do them.

 

So yeah, now that I think about it, I am of the OPINION that expectations is most definitely something that should be discussed.  First, if anyone knows what the Homecoming team can do and wants to do with Homecoming (I'm not going to pretend I know lol)?  Do they have the time/resources?  What is their take on all of this what they want to do with Homecoming?  Should we have any 'expectations' at all?  If so, are they even taking our requests?

 

Also, do a lot of you feel as strongly as Doug about that (or other things)?  Is it because you have expectations from the Homecoming team?  What are your expectations?  I am having a blast playing the current game as it is.  But that's me.  Obviously not everyone feels that way.  I honestly don't want anyone to feel like the game is ruined for them if this... if that...  but I also did not come here expecting anything and just enjoying what has been provided so it really honestly surprises me to see such strong feelings here in the Homecoming forums.  I know it's nothing new but I am seeing these types of strong demands/emphatic statements more lately and now I'm wondering what does everyone expect (and should we)?

 

{clears throat}...

 

I'll start.

 

I came to Homecoming with no expectations.  Only hope.  And holy granola was I surprised and pleased!

Now after playing what they have given us since they opened up I still have no expectations.  Should I?

 

I can tell you what I'm not hoping for or expecting is for the Homecoming team to suddenly go nuclear on all of the fun possible right now.  I can see them making SOME balance attempts on things they did not intend that THEY too are dissatisfied with.  I can also see them continuing to make QoL adjustments and continue adding more.  I can even see them maybe making some kind of balance attempt on IO procs without obliterating everyone's fun by doing something less drastic than nerfing them in a way that hurts everyone and maybe more proc monster targeted if that really is something most want (like limiting how many can go off at once to 3 or 4 or limiting ability slotting of procs to 3 or 4 - I just made this up as an example, I'm sure something's wrong with it.  Don't shoot me lol). 

 

But I'm seeing a lot 'expectations' lately of what I referred to earlier as 'big-can-o-worms' requests.  I don't have these and can only hope that some of you don't get your wishes because it will make the game a lot less enjoyable for some of us.  I'm really hoping for more minor and moderate requests and expectations than major demands and hard core/rose colored sunglasses expectations.  I'm having fun like it is guys.  I also don't mind continued changes and fixes and adjustments and additions and these discussions are QUITE interesting.  Some of the ideas I see getting bounced around sound really cool.  But then the bickering starts because we all have different expectations and we're human.  Can we identify a general consensus of what we can expect here on Homecoming?  Are we really expecting them to pick up where Live left off?  Or even treat this like a new game that just came out?  

 

In the meantime, I think I'm going to get outta here and jump online and play me some crazy fun Homecoming style crazy fun "Homecoming City of Holy Cow I'm Finally Really Able to be a Superhero" (or HCoHCIFRAtbaS for short).  I'm interested to see what people are really expecting from this.

 

Super tired (long day at work) so forgive any typos misspelling or nonsense if I accidentally butchered a sentence trying to change it. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by KauaiJim
Oops - found a typo. Had to do a nerf to it and some sentence rebalancing!

[Murcielago]

I've gotten flamed for this but one way to fix power creep at endgame content is limiting use of Judgement incarnate power to Incarnate Trials only. Judgement makes the need for controlling less impactful. Yes I understand that if I don't like something I and whatever group I'm running in can not use it but that doesn't change the fact that eight users with a massive AoE attack renders most enemies inert. 

[Snarky]

They will be Judged.

[Greycat]

31 minutes ago, Snarky said:

They will be Judged.

And given mints.

[Gulbasaur]

Should all archetypes be able to solo?

Yes, I think so.

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

I personally think no archetypes should be able to solo reliably at +4x8. This game has balance issues, I think it's fair to say. The IO bonus system is very stacked towards defence bonuses to the extent that even dominators and blasters can have defence values above what an early game tanker could expect.

 

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

I'm not sure.

 

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

I use IOs from when I can use them, if I'm honest - I don't remind the level requirements as it sort of works like character milestones but think the bonuses are often much too strong.

 

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

I semi-frequently play +3x8s in Atlas Park with level 1s (who don't stay that level for long) tagging along - A tricked out L50 can carry hard. I personally suspect that the original plan was that most players would have a few bonuses, whereas in the current game half the population is builds that would once have been considered elite.

[Uun]

Should all archetypes be able to solo? Yes

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8? No, but anyone who wants to invest the resources to build a character that can do this shouldn't be prevented from doing it. Personally, I find soloing at that level to be a slog and prefer to go through content more quickly when I solo. I find +2/x4 to be pretty comfortable and will drop to x2 or x3 on squishier characters. 

 

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+? I think incarnate content should be more difficult and characters should be appropriately equipped and level shifted. IMO, this doesn't mean you need soft-capped defense, etc. but I don't think 50+ content should be balanced around SO builds. That said, I'm not sure all the incarnate abilities should be usable on non-incarnate content.

 

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range? "Should" is a tough word, but I recommend using them as early as you can afford them, particularly commons. When I make a new character I will seed it with $1 mil to start, but everything after that is earned from selling boosters bought with merits and converting drops and selling on the AH. I will start crafting and equipping common IOs as early as lvl 12, certainly by lvl 22. I usually wait to equip IO sets until lvl 27, unless the sets I want are usable at lower levels. I start with yellow sets - if you craft from recipes, these are quite affordable, and gradually upgrade to rare sets, ATOs, etc. as I accumulate the inf to do it (unslotting, converting and selling the yellow sets). By lvl 50 the inf is rolling in and I can generally afford whatever I want.

 

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended? I think the question is whether they have an outsized impact when they're not soloing. I don't think so. Even if they can solo at +4/x8, they're not going to be able to defeat mobs as quickly as a team. A full team of 50s can plow through most non-incarnate content at +4/x8 pretty quickly. They're not going to sit around and watch one guy do it.

[Heraclea]

Should all archetypes be able to solo?

 

Yes.  And they can.  Some better than other.  I generally don't try to solo on characters that lack significant mez protection; not what I build those for anyways. 

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

 

Probably yes, and I have not tried every flavor of squishy support character, but I suspect most of them could if they knew what they were doing.  Speed and efficiency are going to be the issues; heavy reliance on slow CCs is going to slow you down.  All archetypes can, surely; some builds might struggle. 

 

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

 

Yes, Incarnate characters should be godlike on less than incarnate content.  The incarnate content tends to bore me, mostly for overreliance on too few, overtuned mob types. 

 

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

 

Yes, especially if you already have a roster of level 50s.  I play collectively; I craft what drops and converter gamble until it turns into something someone needs.  I find a character that could slot and catalyze it, and use catalysts and unslotters to get IOs where they need to go.  I often start slotting catalyzed IOs when they become available, knowing the character can grow into them.

 

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

 

Really, it's minor.  Rather see the rest of the team doing their best.  It does get kind of annoying when you're on a level 49 blaster on a team full of judgment nukes.  But that's a very marginal situation. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Heraclea

[Black Zot]

Should all archetypes be able to solo?

- Hard yes.  There is no excuse for some characters to be arbitrarily prohibited from playing if there's no assistance handy.

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

- There is no "should" or "shouldn't" here, other than "If you don't like how so-and-so plays, you should sod off."

 

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

- Outsized as compared to what, exactly?  No matter what you do, there's no such thing as a team where all members contribute equally, in any game.  Someone is always getting "carried" compared to the others, and someone will always be MVP.

[summers]

On 2/7/2021 at 5:36 AM, Troo said:

It is apparent that continued power creep at higher levels closes the gap between archetypes and their associated roles. This is likely as intended and not a big deal in high level content.

Maybe expectations are the issue.

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo?

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

 

Understanding the intention can help set expectations.

 

Having an understanding of the direction the development team is going and plans moving forward even at a high level can keep the community informed.

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo?

 

Two answers here.

 

Firstly, yes, on the sake of difficulty, and I believe they already have achieved this. Difficulty is at your own selection and it goes down to -1/x0.

 

Secondly, yes, on the sake of being gratifying. This is more difficult to quantify, but there are some combinations that are like pulling teeth to solo. These combinations I think should get a little nudge so that they are better in the soloing world.

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

 

No. There are naturally some builds that are more capable soloers than others, and +4/x8 is currently the pinnacle of difficulty. If everything was able to solo it, it would no longer be difficult for the better soloers.

 

The basis of that assessment is that, in my opinion, there should always be a difficulty setting that is very very tough to challenge those kinds of players who enjoy that content. I'm all for creating higher levels of difficulty that remain optional to challenge these players with 'superbuilds'.

 

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

 

I don't know what this means. Should an incarnate character be better than a non-incarnate? I guess. Should you be required to have IOs or some fancy build at incarnate? No. It's a game for all players of all levels of engagement. I must have misunderstood the question...

 

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

 

It's up to them. The difficulty slider exists for different people.

 

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

 

Yes. When I join to play in a team I like to play in a team, not have one person solo everything on their own. I generally depart these teams reasonably quickly because I want a team experience in a team game.

 

team team team

[golstat2003]

13 hours ago, Murcielago said:

I've gotten flamed for this but one way to fix power creep at endgame content is limiting use of Judgement incarnate power to Incarnate Trials only. Judgement makes the need for controlling less impactful. Yes I understand that if I don't like something I and whatever group I'm running in can not use it but that doesn't change the fact that eight users with a massive AoE attack renders most enemies inert. 

No thanks.

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

- Outsized as compared to what, exactly?  No matter what you do, there's no such thing as a team where all members contribute equally, in any game.  Someone is always getting "carried" compared to the others, and someone will always be MVP.

The most relevant point in this thread. Also who the hell cares. We're here to have fun. If Mr. IO'd to the billions gills makes missions or tfs go faster, great. No issue.

[DSorrow]

On 2/6/2021 at 9:36 PM, Troo said:

Should all archetypes be able to solo?

Yes. I don't think there's any reason why any AT should not be able to progress generic content without the help of a team.

 

On 2/6/2021 at 9:36 PM, Troo said:

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

I'm inclined to say yes. Why? The question does leave quite a bit open. +4/8 with a build specifically geared towards heightened solo performance? Can't say there's anything wrong with this, it's not like any AT or powerset combo is +4/8 capable by default (besides any Control sets with Confusion). +4/8 against which enemies? Council and Banished Pantheon are quite different enemy groups in terms of challenge. +4/8 with or without inspirations? With insps, anything can be done considering how powerful they are even at T1. +4/8 at what kind of speed? If speed isn't a concern, most builds using insps could just go back and forth with a contact and continuously stock up as they run out.

 

I think if we limit this to a specialist build and easier enemy groups, then I don't see why some ATs should not be allowed to have +4/8 solo performance. There's still a wide variety of difficulty within +4/8.

On 2/6/2021 at 9:36 PM, Troo said:

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

Yes and no. Some incarnate mobs are pretty gnarly and they all have increased ToHit, but at the same time we already have extremely difficult enemy groups that we barely get to fight (Vanguard) even below 50. However, at 50, purple sets, catalyzed IOs and especially incarnate level shifts account for a pretty hefty increase in character power so I think that Incarnate content is justified to be a bit more difficult because of the incarnate abilities wielded by player characters.

 

On 2/6/2021 at 9:36 PM, Troo said:

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

I think a decent level of IO usage should be expected in end game content. Analogous to most other games, I think it would be completely reasonable that the most difficult content is tuned for characters that use gear beyond the basic items offered by the game. That said, I wouldn't want this taken to an extreme where every participant needs to be a build wizard, but rather that the expectation is set so that the players have a generic IO set's worth of enhancement value in their powers (~1.5 to 2 SOs per available slot). Essentially, a state you could achieve by slotting just whatever generic and set IO enhancements drop for you without caring for set bonuses, or slotting roughly half of your powers with full IO sets and having set bonuses take care of increasing the other half's enhancement values. But again, this would only apply for end-game content.

 

On 2/6/2021 at 9:36 PM, Troo said:

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

I can only speak for myself, but I've never been bothered by capable teammates. 

 

16 hours ago, Murcielago said:

I've gotten flamed for this but one way to fix power creep at endgame content is limiting use of Judgement incarnate power to Incarnate Trials only. Judgement makes the need for controlling less impactful. Yes I understand that if I don't like something I and whatever group I'm running in can not use it but that doesn't change the fact that eight users with a massive AoE attack renders most enemies inert. 

This I can agree with. Judgment cycling is some of the most boring gameplay I can imagine. At 120 seconds cooldown, an 8 man team can use a Judgment ability every 15 seconds which is just too often in my opinion, especially when there's absolutely no trade-offs to acquire that power. You're not putting yourself at risk by using a ranged Judgment. You're not making a build decision by picking a Judgment power because it doesn't occupy a power slot that could be used by something that's not Judgment. It isn't a big gameplay decision to use Judgment because it comes back so quickly. 

 

None of my 50s have Judgment. While I do enjoy min/maxing, just getting a free "I win" button that's available every two minutes is just too much. Maybe make them 15 mins cooldown like Lore, at least outside of iTrials?

[Rishidian]

I can play my Level 45 Mastermind with full Zombie Hoard at +4/x8 while street sweeping in Atlas Park.

After that, maybe +1/x2 on a good day.  I am not a power player, if you can't tell.

 

By the way, separate servers for power players has been deemed a bad idea.  This was broached in at least 1 other discussion - It didn't go well for anyone.  Here are the points I picked up on (I'm the messenger here...):

 

1) People seem to think this means they are FORCED to play on a separate server.  Not sure where this idea came from, but I didn't find it in the original post.

2) We don't need to separate power players from the rest of us

3) Servers are expensive to run - and a specific server for power players would need separate coding.   Do we need to put that burden on the Devs?

 

I'll crawl back into my shell, now.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Rishidian said:

I can play my Level 45 Mastermind with full Zombie Hoard at +4/x8 while street sweeping in Atlas Park.

After that, maybe +1/x2 on a good day.  I am not a power player, if you can't tell.

 

By the way, separate servers for power players has been deemed a bad idea.  This was broached in at least 1 other discussion - It didn't go well for anyone.  Here are the points I picked up on (I'm the messenger here...):

 

1) People seem to think this means they are FORCED to play on a separate server.  Not sure where this idea came from, but I didn't find it in the original post.

2) We don't need to separate power players from the rest of us

3) Servers are expensive to run - and a specific server for power players would need separate coding.   Do we need to put that burden on the Devs?

 

I'll crawl back into my shell, now.

The person who posted the suggestion STRONGLY suggested that those players should go to that server if it was built. Multiple times.

 

As you mention 3) is all the reason why it was an EPICLY HORRIBAD idea.

[Olly]

Before I get into my 2 cents, I'd like to ask you to see things from a different perspective: that in CoH, *Solo* is the end game, and *teaming* is for relaxing and having a good time.  Hear me out:

 

I've ended up playing solo more times now, just because I find it more challenging. That is not to say I don't enjoy groups. I like the laid-backness I can play when I'm in one as compared to when I *choose* to tackle +4/*8 content. In doing this very many times, I realised an amazing thing about CoH. The solo content can actually be *a lot harder* than group content and be equally rewarding. This is counter to most MMO game design that makes raids and such the end game, and make unique rewards for it. For me, (and I suspect soon for many others based on the amount of "can this build solo" posts now) CoH is the opposite, and I am very happy it is that. 

 

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Should all archetypes be able to solo?

I have issues with what people mean when they say "can this build solo"? This is a very vague question and as it stands cannot be answered in a consistent manner. In general, I'd answer yes to your question for any +0/+0 solo mission content blueside, yes, between levels 1-50, with right-level enhs, and given an "average" mission complete time not counting hunting for well-hidden glowies. I think from that perspective, yes, any reasonable AT build should be able to participate in that level of play. I apologise for the seemingly endless constraints, but it is an impossible question to debate otherwise. So I will skip some of your other questions that have this same level of unaswerability.

 

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Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

To me, this is like saying Hawkeye and Hulk (or Spawn and Batman) should be able to defeat the all the same Big Bads.

 

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Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

Whether intended or not, imo there's no programmatic way (or should there be) to "force" "min/maxers", aka those who solo +4/*8 to play nice when teaming. That is pretty much what you are asking for. Personally, I leave my min/maxer at home or use an alternate build when I'm teaming. The exception is MLTF/STF pugs or ITF speed runs where min/max is somewhat expected and appreciated. And yes, I've run into teams where you have that hotshot that runs off and does their own thing or "steals your kills". If it bothers you, add a note you don't like teaming with them, and move on. I'd rather we first try to collectively, as a player base, take on the question of (1) is this really a high-impact problem? and (2) how could the community better define it? rather than immediately ask "devs, please solve this social problem for us". Frankly, I myself don't see it as an unique issue to CoH, and imho it is relatively tame here compared to elsewhere.

 

On the flip side, I once got called out for saying "the glowie is north of you" because someone didn't know how to use the map as a mini-map, and accused me of being an elitist because "not everyone has dual monitors [to use the map]". 

 

 

 

 

 

[Grindingsucks]

These questions are very helpful for considering various aspects of the game, so thanks for posting this topic, Troo:

 

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Should all archetypes be able to solo?

Yes, but not necessarily all content.  Some content should be sufficiently challenging that careful teamwork is needed to defeat the enemy.  Just as everyone should have the ability to enjoy some of the game content solo, everyone should also have the opportunity to enjoy challenging team play.  I don't see how both expectations can be fulfilled in the same mission, at the same time, without adding another level of difficulty to the game (probably the best solution) or nerfing AT's or IO sets and Incarnate powers across the board (time intensive and impractical, and also liable to put the player base in an uproar).

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Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

I don't think the expectation should be that all archetypes should be the equivalent of a team of 8 heroes, four levels higher than themselves.  I'll be quite frank here: I don't think ANY hero or villain should be that powerful, unless it's an NPC Archvillain, designed to battle teams.  The fact that we can do so is an example of the egregious power creep present in this game (IMO) and part of what makes playing on teams of such heroes, largely an exercise in boredom.

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Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

I hope so.  I think there ought to be.  What is the point of gaining incarnate power and veteran levels, if the challenge doesn't increase to test your new abilities?

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Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

I don't know.  I would be curious what the original designers (and the current developers) thought about this.  Understanding the goal for how IO's and IO sets were intended to impact the play experience at certain levels and how the game is balanced around this goal is, I feel, very important for achieving an enjoyable level of balance in the game.

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Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

In my experience, yes.  Weaker characters typically die repeatedly, over and over again, or else are tough enough to weather the storm, but otherwise ineffectual and useless, being unable to hit, damage, or lockdown any opponents.  This is both boring and frustrating for the weaker character.

 

In a full team of characters able to solo +4/8, you blast through content with little difficulty, except in those cases of certain Taskforces/Trials where cheap gimmicks were employed (e.g. Apex) to address the obvious power creep problem, resulting either boring (in the first case) or unsatisfying (in the second case) team play.

 

Yes, all of the above could be as intended.  If so, I find it a particularly strange design philosophy.  Such things are subjective, of course, but it doesn't result in a very satisfying end-game or (especially) team play experience for me, personally.

 

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Understanding the intention can help set expectations.

 

Having an understanding of the direction the development team is going and plans moving forward even at a high level can keep the community informed.

 

Absolutely.  I completely agree.

 

It's hard for me to wrap my brain around the idea that either the original designers or current developers envisioned the end goal of players being able to solo +4/8 content, rather than intending that setting to be a means for providing continuing challenge for teams of high level players.  Think about it this way:  A team of 8 heroes/villains of this level is equivalent to 64 characters that are all 4 levels higher than themselves.

 

That's not NECESSARILY a bad thing in itself, as long as the content provides a reasonable challenge for teams of such characters.  In my opinion, the game does not provide a reasonable challenge for such teams, at the present.

 

Now, is THIS by design?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  I would be curious to see how the development team (and of course, the active player base) feels about it.

[Marine X]

On 2/6/2021 at 2:36 PM, Troo said:

Maybe expectations are the issue.

I remember a long time ago, on the Paragon Chat boards, the Question was asked.

 

" If City of Heroes came back, but it was at Issue 0, would you play?"

 

I said yes, a sizable number of people said no. Expectations can change everything. I take what I get and try to remember how long I waited to get anything at all.