Is this game too solved to be fun? :(

[pawstruck]

I played a lot back on live, but the only endgame content I ever did was one Hami raid. I am definitely new to the Homecoming additions, and only recently figured out the extent of the IO and Incarnate systems.

 

So I get to 50 on my blaster, get as many good IO sets as I can afford, and unlock my Alpha slot. I'm feeling pretty good about my character and am enjoying seeing his power level continue to rise after level 50.

 

Then I join a "speed Kahn" task force to get my first level shift... and I haven't played CoH since.

 

My problem was that I was completely irrelevant the entire time. There was no challenge in anything. The multiple-incarnate, whatever-super-build level Brute charged into enormous mobs alone and just melted them. Thunderous Blast? Yeah right, the mob was dead before it even animated.

 

I would ask that you not get bent out of shape and scold me over this if there's something I'm missing here. I'm just not sure if the endgame stuff is even interesting because people seem to build uber-characters that don't need support, or even a team at all, to beat content. Meanwhile my whole team is chatting about doing X or Y to increase their damage by another 1.5% and I'm just like... Why? Who cares? Damage doesn't matter if you're just stomping the game already.

 

I really love making costumes, writing backstories, and coming up with cohesive heroes with odd powersets. But I was also hoping that there was some real "meat" to the endgame where even this dated combat system would be pushed to interesting levels. Am I wrong?

 

P.S.: Love the game and really grateful for Homecoming, so again, please don't flame if I'm missing something.

[Jacktar]

Try a really hard mode Aeon SF.

Would be interesting to see how near that gets you to what you are looking for.

Cheers 👍

[Six-Six]

My personal philosophy is that the journey is more important than the destination. I enjoy the levelling up grind more: having virtually no powers at the beginning, earning them as you go, making do with what little slots you have and what you can slot in them, having no inf (self sufficient toons), all while trying to accomplish your mission to get to the next one. My introduction to permadeath was a game changer for me. You die, you get deleted. The fear of death had suddenly injected a whole new level of fun. All of the challenges above and trying not to die. (no P2W either). running around Port Oakes to get to the mission door became a challenge in itself.

Let's face it. the game is laughably easy if you want it to be, and it can be interestingly difficult... if you want it to be. It boils down to you and what you need to do with the options provided for you. Sometimes it's saying no to those options. I rarely slot purples or ATOs. my notoriety settings are usually dialled up just above what I think I can handle. I like stacking things against my toon while gimping him/her in some way or another to force them to surmount the challenges facing them.

Of course, what I do may not be fun for everyone, but it is fun for me. So you gotta find what's fun for you. What I like about this game is that it gives you practically everything to make that happen.

[SeraphimKensai]

Speed runs are by nature comprised of people that are min-maxers trying to get additional reward merits on as short of a time as possible since the higher difficulty settings don't give more reward merit drops.

 

Most people on a built out toon in a speed run can solo the whole thing if they had too, but working together can accelerate the clear time.

 

A setting for everyone to feel useful would be the hard mode settings.

[KaizenSoze]

There are certain common CoX game "modes" where players often feel useless. It's a pretty common complaint, it comes up at least once a month.

 

• Speed runs, especially if you are unfamiliar or not set up for speeding. No stealth, Master minds where their pets are useless till the final battle, etc...
• PI Radio missions if there are a lot of 50+s on the team

Personally, I try and minimize the number of speed runs, because I don't enjoy them. Though, sometimes I just want the WST merits.

 

Lower level TFs can actually be more fun than level 50s, because there aren't several Judgement decimating spawns regularly. Yes, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but still a kernel of truth. As I said in another thread recently. I just really enjoy the combat mechanics, speeding is the opposite of that. If you're going to run speed TFs, don't expect to feel needed. Unless, you are trying to break a speed record, which is a very different activity, that requires great team work and often specialized toons. 

 

You'll feel more needed at lower levels. Lower level PUGs often need 1-2 skilled built out players to smooth things out.  Even at 50, if you are carrying a team of non 50s in PI radios. You will definitely feel needed.

 

If you want to really feel needed, there is always hard mode. ITF or Aeon.

[Astralock]

The streamlining of City of Heroes SCoRE did for their tiny "secret server" years ago made the game entirely too easy by putting characters on the fast-track to godhood.  Thankfully, the Homecoming developers are starting to address this by adding Advanced Difficulty content like the Dr. Aeon SF and the new Advanced Difficulty Imperious TF.  I would recommend finishing your Incarnate abilities, and then joining an Advanced Difficulty ASF or ITF for an actual challenge.

[Sovera]

The good news? Up to six months ago there would not be much to do other than form smaller teams.

 

But now there are hard modes! And those are hard but also granular. Don't skip straight to four stars because that's the hardest of the hard. Anything you can imagine but multiply it by ten. Doing one of those and the team coming out with a hundred deaths is common. So start with one or two stars and work up.

 

 

The rest of the game outside niche content is too easy for the power creep that came from IOs and Incarnates. As noticed things just explode from a touch, though an easier solution is to form smaller teams as mentioned above. Say on /lfg you will be forming a trio to run a TF and see who bites. But don't necessarily expect the game to become harder as it might just become slower.

 

I solo a lot while leveling and it's rare the time I think that soloing made things harder, it just makes clearing everything slower but my HP is not in any more particular risk.

 

 

P.S. Stay out of speedruns in the future until you are much further ahead in the game (I never run those). It is all about TFs ran at +0, skipping mobs, someone running ahead in stealth and teleporting others in, etc etc. Really not much fun except those into it.

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Sovera

[Bill Z Bubba]

Do the opposite of the speed run sometime. Hop into a normal +*/x8 TF and clear everything. Take breaks whenever you want, kill as fast or slow as you like, it's very zen. Being able to start TFs solo was one of the best changes to ever hit this game.

[Clave Dark 5]

It's pretty common for a 50 on a team of 50s to feel "they don't even need me here," and often (new hard mode aside), that's true, they could have left with the team you're on minus you and probably done just fine too. 

 

Look at it from this view point: if you're having fun being there, who cares?  If not, figure out why and then run a team that won't fall intro that trap.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Clave Dark 5

[Snarky]

A speed Khan, really any speed TF, will be DOMINATED by one to three players on the team.  there are only so many objectives after all.  There are some speed runners in my SG and I am still travelling to the mission most of the time they are finishing it.  they are really that fast.  A casual speed ITF for them, bring anything, is 12-15 minutes.  They hold recors on a lot of runs.  Speed runners are a different breed.

 

You want to have fun?  Casual PUG a 30-45 TF and most of the time you will.  50s are different.  almost all 50 TFs are run at speed.  just the game culture.  Personally i like Synapse if it wasnt so repetitive.  cut out a few of the kill alls, or default them to the smallest kill all map and it would be a solid run. Everybody needed, everyone appreciated.

[Frozen Burn]

2 hours ago, pawstruck said:

I played a lot back on live, but the only endgame content I ever did was one Hami raid. I am definitely new to the Homecoming additions, and only recently figured out the extent of the IO and Incarnate systems.

 

So I get to 50 on my blaster, get as many good IO sets as I can afford, and unlock my Alpha slot. I'm feeling pretty good about my character and am enjoying seeing his power level continue to rise after level 50.

 

Then I join a "speed Kahn" task force to get my first level shift... and I haven't played CoH since.

 

My problem was that I was completely irrelevant the entire time. There was no challenge in anything. The multiple-incarnate, whatever-super-build level Brute charged into enormous mobs alone and just melted them. Thunderous Blast? Yeah right, the mob was dead before it even animated.

 

I would ask that you not get bent out of shape and scold me over this if there's something I'm missing here. I'm just not sure if the endgame stuff is even interesting because people seem to build uber-characters that don't need support, or even a team at all, to beat content. Meanwhile my whole team is chatting about doing X or Y to increase their damage by another 1.5% and I'm just like... Why? Who cares? Damage doesn't matter if you're just stomping the game already.

 

I really love making costumes, writing backstories, and coming up with cohesive heroes with odd powersets. But I was also hoping that there was some real "meat" to the endgame where even this dated combat system would be pushed to interesting levels. Am I wrong?

 

P.S.: Love the game and really grateful for Homecoming, so again, please don't flame if I'm missing something.

 

Welcome back to the game and glad you are finally getting IOs and Incarnate figured out.  As others have stated above, "speed" runs are not for those that want to power through and feel "useful" or feel like you are doing something.  Speed runs are all about getting the entire task over with ASAP and typically maxxed out toons on the lowest setting all them to easily burn through the objectives to quickly get the end reward.

 

To continue growing your incarnates and feel "useful" on a team, look for teams that are "steamrolling" or just fighting through content - typically anything "non-speed."  Every Saturday around 3PM ET, there is a group that runs through all the incarnate trials - try to get in if you can as some trials have a 24 member league cap and others have a 16 member league cap.  iTrials can also be found ad hoc throughout the week as well, typically in the evenings (ET).  These are the best way to build your incarnate powers as you can get component drops as rewards.  

 

Running the Dark Astoria content is a great way to get incarnate components for your toons as well.  Speak to to Captain Nolan (he dropped into your contact list when you unlocked your Alpha).  He'll intro duce you to Ephram Shaw that gives repeatable missions in DA and Heather Townsend that will take you through all the arcs.  At the end of the arcs, you get a reward table where 1 option is a random incarnate component (common through very rare).

 

Other than that, just running content and defeating enemies will get you incarnate thread drops and veteran levels, which will also grant additional threads and empryean merits for building incarnate powers.  

 

defeating enemies and running a WST TF/SF will also grant a Notice of the Well... these are used with Incarnate Shards to help build your Alpha (only).  They drop at a lower rate, but they can help you build a tier in your Alpha and you can save your threads and Empyreans for other things.  So use them in conjunction with your threads on your alpha - it can help you get your Alpha to Tier 4 pretty quick.  

 

Good luck!

[MoonSheep]

the amount of buffs over the years has reduced the CoH feel quite significantly - the original “holy trinity” where you needed a tank, damage and buffs has been dead for quite some time unfortunately however it’s still very much alive sub lvl 30 where some of the best content is

 

hard mode TFs will give you that classic CoH flavour, team work is very much required to complete them

[cranebump]

Play without IOs. That changes things.:-)

[Coyotedancer]

37 minutes ago, cranebump said:

Play without IOs. That changes things.:-)

 

As someone who's in the process of leveling a Controller on nothing but SOs... This is true. 

[pawstruck]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. 🙂 I suppose it should have been obviously unfair to judge the content of the endgame by a speedrun... I'll take some of the advice in this thread and try it out. 

[srmalloy]

6 hours ago, Six-Six said:

My personal philosophy is that the journey is more important than the destination. I enjoy the levelling up grind more: having virtually no powers at the beginning, earning them as you go, making do with what little slots you have and what you can slot in them, having no inf (self sufficient toons), all while trying to accomplish your mission to get to the next one.

And learning how your different powers work together, and how they combine under different situations. I can understand the mindset of the people who come from other MMOs where the game doesn't really begin until level cap, and everything before that is just repetitive grinding, but you miss so much of the flavor diving into the AE building at level 1 and not coming out until 50, not to mention having to figure out how your powers work together all at once, and not knowing how they worked together when you exemp down to do the TFs you passed up while doorsitting.

[KaizenSoze]

4 hours ago, pawstruck said:

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. 🙂 I suppose it should have been obviously unfair to judge the content of the endgame by a speedrun... I'll take some of the advice in this thread and try it out. 

It's all good. A lot of folks have had the experience of feeling useless on teams.

[MistressOhm]

Keep in mind that 'speed runs' that get padded with "non-essential personnel" (that'd be you in the example given) are basically a way for the speedrunning brute to add to the mob count but not the difficulty.   It's a powerleveling tactic.  The idea is that they get to whomp on more mobs, potentially get more drops, and you get the badge for completing the TF along with any XP/incarnate threads/whatever else drops for you.  

 

It's not supposed to be a challenge, all they need is an audience, to put it bluntly.

 

But yes, the good part is, if the game seems 'too easy' there are many ways to crank up the difficulty.  

[Yomo Kimyata]

Keep in mind a few things.  On Live, they paygated a lot of things, because well that's one way to make money.  Then it went black and SCORE was running it as a secret underground server for seven years.  Those players and the people who were working on the code wanted something a lot more user friendly, and so instituted a lot of buffs that made the game significantly easier.  They also unlocked a lot of the paygated material.  Then there is a decade or so of power creep.

 

For most content, a single person with a lot of knowledge on builds and a big budget can cakewalk through +4/x8 content.  I've never tried to solo a Kahn TF personally, since the main AV in that one might take me hours to defeat solo.  But anything that is not AV is pretty much trivial.

 

It is nice to see the introduction of super high end difficulty content though.  I don't think I could solo anything higher than 2 star, and probably even that is a pipe dream!

[Doomguide2005]

     It is a very common to feel unnecessary at high levels especially on many support characters.  So what to do.

1. Play on small(er) teams
2. Exemplar down.  While 50+ characters can still be very dominate lack of level shift and other incarnate abilities do at least start to dial it back.
3. Run the Hardmode HC content, the ASF and ITF 
4. There is also some player created content in AE that is as difficult if not more difficult than the current HC created Hardmode content.  In particular you'll see mentioned a series called 801(801.1 to 801.F) which gets increasingly difficult as the number goes up.
5. Various handicapping methods.  Such as running on SO or Generic non-set IOs.  Running Ouro content with some of the handicap settings such as players debuffed, foes buffed, no enhancements, etc..  

Use a combination of the above.  Create a second build using alternate choices using 'weird' powers or only using SOs.  And yes speed runners and speed content is definitely not the best place for a returning, still relearning things player to be if wanting to feel useful on a post 50 or any other level really, even a Blaster.

 

 

[Without_Pause]

I don't team a lot. I prefer soloing and trying out seeing how well or not characters do. I spend far more time getting to 50 than being level 50. I probably have roughly 15 characters at 50. Only one is fully IOed out and all T4ed in terms of Incarnates. I haven't found much end game content to be genuinely fun, and speed runs could borderline die in a fire for all I care.

[Sir Myshkin]

When you're on a mission with folks stomping though, and others talking about squeezing out 1.5% more damage into their builds, they got to that stomp point by talking about squeezing out that last percent. For some players that type of play really is the enjoyment of the end game, but isn't for everyone. As others have mentioned there are definitely opportunities to alter the play experience for oneself to drive it in different ways.

 

Last night I joined an ITF, just a regular ole basic one to waste some time. We kicked off one player short (no big), we lost a player after the first mission, and another after the second, but the situation was saved by the fact that there were a couple of us a bit more loaded out then normal. My build alone was designed for Hard Mode, so doing it on regular was easy peasy. Basic rule of thumb is find the parts of the game that are the most enjoyable, and stick to them.

 

If it doesn't spark joy, don't do it. 🙂

[Greycat]

Yeah. If you want to "see" the game, don't join speed runs. My first Aeon ended up being a speed run, and I still have no clue what was going on. Start a run (of anything,) explain "hey, I'm new to this and want to SEE the content," and do it.

 

Don't rush to 50. DOn't know if you did or not, but... you miss a lot.

 

Also, it half sounds like the OP should get into RP. Making *characters* to me and interacting with others has been far more fun than "1-50 in an hour, eleventybillioni percent defense nothing can hit me I'm permaeverything raaaaagh!"

[Ukase]

19 hours ago, pawstruck said:

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. 🙂 I suppose it should have been obviously unfair to judge the content of the endgame by a speedrun... I'll take some of the advice in this thread and try it out. 

So, I can't add much that others haven't already suggested. 
I hate to use the word meta...so I won't. 

But there are, in a fashion, a lot of different ways to complete the same objectives. 
When you're on a speed run, for me, it always seems as if someone is faster. Some guys are in the final boss room just as I enter the map. I can only imagine their load times are much faster than mine, and my system is pretty good. I think the only bottleneck is my monitor, which isn't really taking advantage of my newer graphics card. Darn monitor. No moving parts, so the damn thing will probably outlast the video card and the SSD. And my awkward key binds - using arrow keys to move, as it's far more intuitive to me than using WASD or any other system. 

 

Speed runs are annoyingly frustrating for a lot of players, primarily because they feel guilty because the 2-3 players that team together all the time are probably on a discord channel coordinating while the rest of the team tries to keep up. In some cases, everyone's on discord, and even then, there's usually the same 2-3 players that get to the objectives before the rest can do anything helpful. I think this was part of the reason HM TFs came into play. Even still, some of the TFJ folks are so competent, so fast, that I'm often left to just blast the remaining bosses. 
Opinions and character builds will certainly vary, but there are some speed runners who design a build for a specific purpose. The use of Tactics, from the leadership pool as an example. In the HM TFs, there's some math at play regarding toHit, and thus, impacting accuracy. You be damage capped at 400%, but it does nobody any good if you miss half the time. So, a fair number of speed runners will either pursue tactics, and accuracy set bonuses, and recharge. 

There's so many ways to attack a given task/strike force. Kill most, kill through, my favorite which is "speed-ish", meaning you're going to try to speed, but understand that you're just not that speedy. And there's the speed runs. I just feel guilty being carried on those runs, so I tend to not join those too often. 

 

And if a speed run isn't your cup of tea, I wouldn't worry about that too much. I think there are more people who like to just casually clobber stuff in the way than speed runners. Probably depends on the content. But try to keep an open mind. Speed runners I've run into have all been sharp players, often more than willing to help someone get a badge, or some other objective. And their understanding of game mechanics is usually excellent. So, even if you don't want to team with them, it's good to be friendly with them because they're quite knowledgeable. 

[High_Beam]

My first Aeon and Tinpex were both super speed and I seriously didn't even known where to go.  I felt . . . unheroic.  It got better.  All of the advice above is good and I myself have used it.  I actually PUG quite a bit when not doing SG events because as mentioned, there is a random mix of powers, skill and style.  Sure there are frustrations that go with it but you wont get bored.  I have accepted that certain TF/SF are going to be speed unless I run it and say "kill all/most".  Khan, Aeon, Kal and Yin are all in that group.  There are others but because of their design, even speed runs still require patience and pacing so you don't get as lost in the sauce.

 

I feel useful in speeds as a Blaster regardless of how fast it goes cause I am getting shots off.  My trollers and defenders contribute.  I leave the Brooting and tanking to the others because I am slow.  Masterminds, yeah that's one that just hurts at times because even when not speed, an MM is left in the dust, well minor buff and debuff and then, "okay final mission, call your pets but don't draw aggro".  Then again an MM can solo most content 😛