Discussion: Disabling XP No Longer Increases Influence

[Lines]

Just now, Luminara said:

 

Inf* (A) + enhancement drops (B) + salvage drops (C) + common IO recipe drops (D) + set IO recipe drops (E) + XP (F)

 

Empty salvage, recipe and enhancement inventories before beginning.  Screenshot of XP and inf* before and after run.

 

Enhancement and common IO recipe drops should be calculated at vendor value.

 

Salvage drops should be calculated at average market value.  Each type of salvage should be checked individually, as opposed to simply counting the number of each category of rarity and assuming that all salvage in a category has the same value, to ensure an accurate appraisal.  Note that converters are categorized as salvage.

 

Set recipe drops should be calculated at average market value, and should include recipes the subject would keep rather than sell (a penny saved is a penny earned)

 

A+B+C+D+E, then A+B+C+D+E+F, compare the two totals to determine the percentage difference.

 

At least ten runs should be conducted.  A hundred would even out the variability of drops more effectively, but a very (very) rough estimate can be obtained with ten.

No, that's too much answer! I wasn't ready!

*melts*

[arcane]

Nice work Luminara but why would we count XP as income? Especially when one’s farmers are vet level 99+ and the xp has zero value?

 

Also, wouldn’t you have to have old market values on hand for the “before change” calculation?

Edited July 21, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[Coyotedancer]

If you REALLY wanted to be nit-picky about it, you'd also do each run's value calculation based on prices during the same day of the week and at around the same time of day, That actually can make quite a difference in selling price as both supply and demand vary a lot depending on how many of us are online buying, building and selling.

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

WIllpower is Love.

Stepping back in to say, my WP/MA concurs readily.  Wolf's green bar barely moves.

 

And before I step back out: Nerf regen.

[Patti]

Where did Jimmy's post go?

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Nice work Luminara but why would we count XP as income? Especially when one’s farmers are vet level 99+ and the xp has zero value?

 

Because that's how the NoXP setting worked.  It was never double inf*, it was XP = inf*.  When the setting was activated, all XP was turned into inf*, so you received your normal inf* from the source, plus the inf* which would've been XP.  In some cases, that might've resulted in more than 2x inf*, in other (most) cases, less than 2x.

 

2 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Also, wouldn’t you have to have old market values on hand for the “before change” calculation?

 

At old market values, C and E would represent higher percentages of income, and the percentage coming from F would be lower.  So although it might be worthwhile to investigate the difference using old market data, it wouldn't present the best possible case for farmers, and it wouldn't really be reflective of the actual contribution of F.  The percentage of income represented by F is always in flux, always changing, because the values of C and E are always changing.  As @Coyotedancer pointed out, C and E have different values at different times of the day, and week, and trying to nail anything down to a fixed number would be far more taxing than is necessary for this.  All we're looking for is a general estimate of what F could be contributing to income in relation to what the other income sources are contributing, meaning, how much is bonus inf* really worth in the overall picture.  A rough percentage calculated using current market values will do for that.

[Hardship]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

Each type of salvage should be checked individually, as opposed to simply counting the number of each category of rarity and assuming that all salvage in a category has the same value, to ensure an accurate appraisal. 

Doesn't the fungibility of the salvage now by definition have the same cost within each salvage category of common, uncommon and rare?  A Brass is the same cost as an Alchemical Silver because once they go in the AH, they ARE the same salvage. Isn't that how that works?

[Coyotedancer]

3 minutes ago, Hardship said:

Doesn't the fungibility of the salvage now by definition have the same cost within each salvage category of common, uncommon and rare?  A Brass is the same cost as an Alchemical Silver because once they go in the AH, they ARE the same salvage. Isn't that how that works?

'Pretty sure they do. They're all "bucketed" together by rarity, regardless of tier or type.

[Ironblade]

23 hours ago, EmmySky said:

It actually is.  Every player has access to the market.  Saying it isn't equally accessible to everyone is wrong.

I am reminded of a quote attributed to Yogi Berra:  "In theory, theory and practice are the same.  In practice, they aren't."

 

Yes, technically, everyone has the same access to the market.  So, IN THEORY, it's equally accessible to everyone.

In practice, there are plenty of people who just aren't able to marketeer their way to big bucks.  Maybe they don't have the patience or attention span to learn it.  And maybe this is due to medical reasons and not simply characters flaws.  Maybe they don't have the intelligence or education to get it to work for them.

 

Frankly, when I hear someone saying that the market is equally accessible to everyone and there's no reason they can't learn it - that smacks of privilege.  Hey, I have a good education, I'm computer literate, I kick butt with Excel - this market stuff is easy.  Well, it's easy for SOME people, entirely doable for MOST, but not for everyone.

[AboveTheChemist]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

<comparison methodology>

I haven't farmed in a while but I think I will give this a shot (for science!). My approach will be to:

• Vendor all enhancement drops and common IO recipe drops
• Vendor or sell on the market (whichever offers a better price) all set IO recipe drops EXCEPT those that can be crafted and sold directly (without conversion) for substantially more than the recipe
• Sell all salvage on the market EXCEPT that which is needed to craft any recipes as mentioned above
• Anything sold on the market won't be posted for 1 inf, but will be posted at a low enough offer price that it (hopefully) sells within 24 hours

I'll only craft and sell the 'low-hanging fruit' like purples, PvP, LotG, and the like. Is that an approach a typical farmer might use, or do farmers typically not bother crafting recipes and rather just sell all recipes outright? I only ever dabbled in farming (I did it mostly to see what the fuss was about) but my farmer character can handle Briggs' fire farm at 4x8 with ease, and if I remember it consists of a series of 5 missions so I'll run that set of missions once a night for two weeks and report back my findings.

[Patti]

Thank you iron blade.

[Luminara]

14 minutes ago, Hardship said:

Doesn't the fungibility of the salvage now by definition have the same cost within each salvage category of common, uncommon and rare?  A Brass is the same cost as an Alchemical Silver because once they go in the AH, they ARE the same salvage. Isn't that how that works?

 

Eh.  How it's supposed to work isn't necessarily how it actually works.  You might get that Brass for 10 inf*, but spend 500 on the Alchemical Silver.  Or vice versa.  Pooling the salvage doesn't control player behavior, it merely ensures that something is available.  The price on that something is primarily driven by players.  Seeding ensures that there's always supply, pooling ensures that the supply is larger and keeps marketeers from cornering the market, but ultimately, prices are dictated by players, both buyers and sellers.  So prices, even on common salvage, fluctuate frequently.  As such, it would be best to factor individually.

[Jimmy]

1 hour ago, Patti said:

Where did Jimmy's post go?

The poster I replied to deleted their post, so I hid mine as it contained quotes from the deleted post.

[Lines]

5 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

Yes, technically, everyone has the same access to the market.  So, IN THEORY, it's equally accessible to everyone.

In practice, there are plenty of people who just aren't able to marketeer their way to big bucks.  Maybe they don't have the patience or attention span to learn it.  And maybe this is due to medical reasons and not simply characters flaws.  Maybe they don't have the intelligence or education to get it to work for them.

The market on live wasn't accessible in practice or in theory. It's ok if people choose not to engage for whatever reason, but a problem if they can't even if they wanted to.

 

That's the scenario we want to avoid.

 

You're completely right, though. And anything that makes it more user friendly would be great.

[Ironblade]

4 minutes ago, Lines said:

You're completely right, though. And anything that makes it more user friendly would be great.

And one step would be to actually get it working correctly.

 

Example:  I had a bid in for a recipe.  My bid was 315,000 and had been in for two days.  Upon checking, the market listed the last five transactions, all today, as follows:

1,100,000

1,050,000

5,000

1,150,000

1,100,000

 

Well, there's a problem.  If my bid was 315,000, there can't be a purchase at 5,000 unless either the bidding or reporting system is broken.  Hardly destroying my quality of life (gaming), but it is annoying.

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

At old market values, C and E would represent higher percentages of income, and the percentage coming from F would be lower. 

 

Something I feel necessary to append to this sentence - if calculating with higher market values, not only is the income percentage from drops higher, but the value of inf* per unit is lower.  What that means is F is worth more now than it would be using old market values.  So, the farmer may be accumulating inf* at a slower rate, but that inf* has more buying power.  It's worth more now.  Therefore, that value should be calculated as well, as it's highly relevant to the question of how much of the percentage of income it represents.

 

But I'm watching Pretty Woman right now, so my math co-processor is off.  Someone else can figure it out.

[EmmySky]

3 hours ago, Ironblade said:

I am reminded of a quote attributed to Yogi Berra:  "In theory, theory and practice are the same.  In practice, they aren't."

 

Yes, technically, everyone has the same access to the market.  So, IN THEORY, it's equally accessible to everyone.

In practice, there are plenty of people who just aren't able to marketeer their way to big bucks.  Maybe they don't have the patience or attention span to learn it.  And maybe this is due to medical reasons and not simply characters flaws.  Maybe they don't have the intelligence or education to get it to work for them.

 

Frankly, when I hear someone saying that the market is equally accessible to everyone and there's no reason they can't learn it - that smacks of privilege.  Hey, I have a good education, I'm computer literate, I kick butt with Excel - this market stuff is easy.  Well, it's easy for SOME people, entirely doable for MOST, but not for everyone.

Please point out where I indicated there is no reason someone cant learn it?  I said it is accessible, as in you can type /ah almost anywhere and access it, as a direct counterpoint to VT saying it wasnt accessible.

 

My marketing skills consist of posting all recipes and salvage at 100 and collecting inf.  I would certainly never put down anyone for not using it in the most efficient manner as I certainly don't.  But it IS accessible which was the entirety of my point.  If the ability to type /ah is privileged behavior then I appologize for my phalangal dexterity.

Edited July 21, 2020 by EmmySky

[Troo]

+1 for "phalangal dexterity"

[Dazl]

Well look who's back, maybe we can get it to 100 pages this time.

 

You know it's not really farming that creates inflation. Sure it creates pure influence from game play, but it's not like the real world where money is printed and has to have some kind of backing to keep it's value. This is a computer game so the value it has is what we give it. Farmers sitting on billions or marketeers sitting on billions doesn't mean anything unless they spend it in ways that causes prices to go up because they are willing to overpay for what something is worth simply because price is no issue for them. So sure limiting the amount of influence generation from farming will help curb that, but people amassing influence from marketing have billions of disposable income as well.

 

Even though I have plenty of funds through a combination of influence and merit farming, I will not spend it ridiculously. I'm not going to pay more than what I think something is worth, and when it gets into the 20 million range I'm looking at using merits. One of the up sides to farming is getting recipes I can turn into something I need to equip my alts, so I'm not spending anything if I can help it.

 

Whether people earn billions from farming or marketing all of them could go crazy buying stuff simply because they have the funds and the cost doesn't matter. So it's not really the amount of influence out there, it's how it is used that effects the market for good or ill.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Crimsonpyre
Spelling

[Myrmidon]

On 7/20/2020 at 1:54 PM, arcaneholocaust said:

I had 100% of my alts purpled to the teeth before the nerf. As soon as the nerf hit, I lost my patience with the slower rates of return pretty quickly. Now only ~50% of my 50’s have enhancements at all. 😕

And I have the entire Attuned IO build waiting in trays/storage for every character before they even earn a single point of Experience. It has been much easier to do so since this Inflation Adjustment.

[SwitchFade]

This one time...

 

... At band camp...

 

Nerf Regen.

[Yomo Kimyata]

10 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

This one time...

 

... At band camp...

 

Nerf Regen.

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way – in short, nerf regen. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

I simply dislike getting nothing in return for turning off XP. That's all.

[Greycat]

51 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I simply dislike getting nothing in return for turning off XP. That's all.

Depends on what you consider nothing. It's still a nice tool for those who want to make sure to catch certain arcs without having to ouro them. For those people, that's definitely "something."

[Lines]

8 hours ago, Crimsonpyre said:

You know it's not really farming that creates inflation. Sure it creates pure influence from game play, but it's not like the real world where money is printed and has to have some kind of backing to keep it's value. This is a computer game so the value it has is what we give it. Farmers sitting on billions or marketeers sitting on billions doesn't mean anything unless they spend it in ways that causes prices to go up because they are willing to overpay for what something is worth simply because price is no issue for them. So sure limiting the amount of influence generation from farming will help curb that, but people amassing influence from marketing have billions of disposable income as well.

 

...

 

Whether people earn billions from farming or marketing all of them could go crazy buying stuff simply because they have the funds and the cost doesn't matter. So it's not really the amount of influence out there, it's how it is used that effects the market for good or ill.

Yeah, this is largely true and quite interesting.

 

There's a slight risk that if a lot of people who hoarded a lot of inf suddenly decided to make a whole lot of alts and kit them out all at the same time, overpaying on everything, there would be some weirdness with pricing. That behaviour certainly isn't exclusive to farmers. Their hoarded wealth gets redistributed around to the general playerbase too, so higher prices might get sustained for a while. In fact, I reckon we'll see this happen any time a new powerset is released. (though I think prices went down with Electrical Affinity, so maybe not. [Edit: maybe that was because the update saw an increase in players, and subsequently an increase in supply] )

 

The impact would be an outlier, though. It takes sustained behaviours across a wider proportion of people using the market to permanently affect the market.

 

But I think it's safe to assume that farmers farm in order to create enough inf with the intention of using it, though (And there's nothing wrong with that behaviour at all). As some have said in this thread, they're not really trying to hoard wealth. I don't have the data to back this up, but I'd imagine that most of the inf generated from farming gets mobilised in the market. If the inf generation from farming significantly exceeds the income from any other gameplay, the prices would start to follow farming trends and rocket up until you had to farm to participate (as happened on Live). But you're right, any inf that doesn't get used basically has no impact besides increasing the impact of the unlikely potential scenario described above.

 

Meanwhile, in a fantasy world where farming wasn't a thing for some reason, inf-per-player would be a lot lower, just because the remaining methods of generating inf would be less efficient. In principle, that means the value-as-proportion-of-total (there are probably real terms for stuff like this that I don't know) of each unit of inf is greater. It gets interesting when you think about prices - they'd probably be a lot lower against HC values, but since lack of farming would bring in less supply, the value-as-buying-power of each unit of inf might be lower. So in reality stuff could be more unaffordable for the average player.

 

This is why trying to keep the difference between farming and other gameplay fairly level is so important.

 

I'd say that the value of real world money is just as mythical as the value of influence. It's just that fewer people are subscribed to the latter myth.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Lines